NASA says it will build quiet supersonic passenger jet

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March 28th, 2016 at 4:20:06 PM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Wizard
Trivia time! What two airlines flew the Concord? As always, please put answers in


More than two airlines flew the Concorde. The obvious two are AF and BA. Braniff actually flew it domestically in the U.S. and Singapore Airlines also flew it for a short period.
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March 28th, 2016 at 4:33:16 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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I think those airlines leased or chartered the planes from BA and/or AF. But AF and BA were the only buyers
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March 28th, 2016 at 4:42:58 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
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A very sad list.

Date Customer Ordered items
1972 Iran Air (2(+1)) Concorde (cancelled)
1972 CAAC (2(+2)) Concorde (cancelled)
1966 Qantas (4) Concorde (cancelled)
1966 Eastern (6) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 Air Canada (4) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 Air India (2) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 American (6) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 Braniff (3) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 Eastern (2) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 JAL (3) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 Lufthansa (3) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 MEA-Air Liban (2) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 Qantas (6) Concorde (2 options cancelled 5/66, last 4 later cancelled)
1965 Sabena (2) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 TWA (6) Concorde (cancelled)
1965 United (6) Concorde (cancelled)
1964 American (4) Concorde (cancelled)
1964 Continental (3) Concorde (cancelled)
1964 TWA (4) Concorde (cancelled)
1963 Pan American (6) Concorde (2 more later optioned, 1 then all cancelled)
Data from AeroTransport Data Bank / © 2000-2001 Alexandre Avrane
March 28th, 2016 at 5:12:13 PM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 51
Posts: 4944
Quote: Nareed
I think those airlines leased or chartered the planes from BA and/or AF. But AF and BA were the only buyers


You may be correct but the question was which two airlines flew the Concorde.
At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent.
March 28th, 2016 at 5:29:39 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
A very sad list.


I wonder how some of these airlines planned to use the Concorde. Those in the US would have crowded the transatlantic routes from NYC to London and Paris. Imagine that. Maybe also on some Latin American routes, say from Miami and stopping in Panama or Costa Rica.

What would Qantas and JAL have done with it?

Most important, when and why were all these orders cancelled?
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March 28th, 2016 at 5:33:42 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
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Quote: DRich
You may be correct but the question was which two airlines flew the Concorde.


A charter would have involved pilots from the owner flying the planes. This differs from a lease where you'd expect the lessee to supply their own pilots and crew. Also, were the planes painted in a different livery?
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March 28th, 2016 at 7:10:00 PM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 51
Posts: 4944
Quote: Nareed
A charter would have involved pilots from the owner flying the planes. This differs from a lease where you'd expect the lessee to supply their own pilots and crew. Also, were the planes painted in a different livery?


According to Wikipedia, Braniff leased 11 planes from BA and AF. Braniff pilots flew the routes out of Dallas to Dulles but the BA pilots took over for the transatlantic legs.

Singapore Airlines had their planes painted on one side with their livery and the other side was BA.
At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent.
March 29th, 2016 at 7:33:30 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
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Quote: DRich
According to Wikipedia, Braniff leased 11 planes from BA and AF. Braniff pilots flew the routes out of Dallas to Dulles but the BA pilots took over for the transatlantic legs.

Singapore Airlines had their planes painted on one side with their livery and the other side was BA.


It's hard to say whether these two flew the Concorde as their own or not. It reminds me that Jet Blue has a contract with the US government to fly people to Dubai. What they do is sell the ticket to the government, place the passenger on Emirates on a Jet Blue code share, and turn most of the money over to their partner.

Now, there were only 20 or so Concordes built. Leasing 11 at a time seems too much. Perhaps they leased planes on 11 occasions? I know. Wikipedia. Still, when thinking why Braniff failed, consider the expense of training crews to fly a plane like that for only a few flights in the overall scheme of things. They'd have been better off buying their own Concorde.
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March 29th, 2016 at 8:10:54 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Nareed
What would Qantas and JAL have done with it?
Most important, when and why were all these orders cancelled?


I don't know what the potential routes were. I am guessing Sydney to Singapore and Tokyo to Singapore
3440 miles John F Kennedy Intl, New York City, NY (JFK) to Heathrow, London, GB (LHR)
3670 miles Washington Dulles Intl, Washington, DC (IAD) to Heathrow, London, GB (LHR)
3910 miles Sydney Kingsford Smith Arpt, Sydney, AU (SYD) to Changi Intl Arpt, Singapore, SG (SIN) to
3330 miles Narita, Tokyo, JP (NRT) to Changi Intl Arpt, Singapore, SG (SIN)

The schedule of "first flights" was impossibly slow. About one every 4 months on average. In contrast the A380 is being produced at about 25 per year. I think that we can say that there never was a true production line for the Concorde.

Country - construction # - First Flight- Number - Days
France 1 02. Mar. 1969 F-WTSS
Britain 2 09. Apr. 1969 G-BSST
Britain 101 17. Dec. 1971 G-AXDN
France 102 10. Jan. 1973 F-WTSA
France 201 06. Dec. 1973 F-WTSB
Britain 202 13. Feb. 1974 G-BBDG 69
France 203 31. Jan. 1975 F-BTSC 352 --- Concorde that crashed in June 2000
Britain 204 27. Feb. 1975 G-BOAC 27
France 205 27. Oct. 1975 F-BVFA 242
Britain 206 05. Nov. 1975 G-BOAA 9
France 207 06. Mar. 1976 F-BVFB 122
Britain 208 18. May. 1976 G-BOAB 73
France 209 09. Jul. 1976 F-BVFC 52
Britain 210 25. Aug. 1976 G-BOAD 47
France 211 10. Feb. 1977 F-BVFD 169
Britain 212 17. Mar. 1977 G-BOAE 35
France 213 26. Jun. 1978 F-BTSD 466
Britain 214 21. Apr. 1978 G-BOAG -66
France 215 26. Dec. 1978 F-BVFF 249
Britain 216 20. Apr. 1979 G-BOAF 115
March 29th, 2016 at 8:29:18 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
The schedule of "first flights" was impossibly slow. About one every 4 months on average. In contrast the A380 is being produced at about 25 per year. I think that we can say that there never was a true production line for the Concorde.


You know, in all the analyses about Concorde I've read, none mention this. It's all about noise regulations and the sonic boom, the price of oil, the oil shocks, and the high ticket price.

It's really too bad.

Sure, Concorde itself would never be more than a luxury transatlantic airliner. But if they'd sold, oh, at least 60 planes and these operated routes all over the world, eventually a follow-on design would have emerged, fuel prices or no fuel prices, noise or no noise.

What I wonder is whether supercruise engines, which can get up to Mach 1.2 or so without afterburners, could be scaled up for passenger jets. If the fuel consumption isn't sky-high <w>, and if it could work with two engines only in at least the small wide body range, we could speed up travel more gradually.

I think currently the range for jets is about .85-.89 Mach or so. This would be an increase of 34-41% which is not at all bad. The problem is still the sonic boom. So initially, at least, these types would do what the Concorde did, but at somewhat lower prices and certainly in greater numbers.
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