NASA says it will build quiet supersonic passenger jet

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May 15th, 2016 at 10:35:39 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
I notice a lot of competitive business class fares on Icelandair USA to Europe connecting in RKV
I've sold quite a few of those.
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
May 15th, 2016 at 11:44:22 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: terapined
I notice a lot of competitive business class fares on Icelandair USA to Europe connecting in RKV I've sold quite a few of those.

I know the flights are not as long in duration, but business class is an older recliner model chair with 40" pitch, instead of "angled flat" or "180 degree flat". Do your clients ask about these seats?


RKV, Iceland is actually 176 miles closer to BOS than LAX
Flight to Seattle is 07:15 east to 07:45 west


RKV SEA 303° (NW) 317° (NW) 3,634 mi
RKV DEN 284° (W) 298° (NW) 3,585 mi
RKV MCO 256° (W) 270° (W) 3,556 mi
RKV ANC 330° (NW) 344° (N) 3,385 mi

RKV ORD 272° (W) 286° (W) 2,964 mi
RKV MSP 279° (W) 293° (NW) 2,963 mi
RKV IAD 259° (W) 273° (W) 2,821 mi
RKV JFK 257° (W) 271° (W) 2,615 mi
RKV EWR 258° (W) 272° (W) 2,623 mi
RKV BOS 256° (W) 270° (W) 2,435 mi

Icelandair also flies to 5 Canadian destinations
Edmonton
Halifax
Montreal
Toronto
Vancouver
May 15th, 2016 at 1:28:11 PM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Quote: Pacomartin
I know the flights are not as long in duration, but business class is an older recliner model chair with 40" pitch, instead of "angled flat" or "180 degree flat". Do your clients ask about these seats?

I had no idea their bus class is not that comfortable
I actually don't keep up on differences in business class on different airlines.
I just have a general idea of the top airlines and assume great bus cls such as EK QR SQ ect
I actually haven't sold them a lot lately.
They do seem to come up in some low fare searches.
Sometimes their budget determines what they buy
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
May 15th, 2016 at 4:17:13 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: terapined
I had no idea their bus class is not that comfortable


It seems like a funny argument to me. I've never had a flat or an angled-flat seat in my life. In my world getting upgraded to a business contour seat to cross the Atlantic was about as good as I have had it.

Once I got a ride in the Navy's Office of the General Counsel business jet, and we didn't have flat bed seats for that.

But I understand that many business flyers want 180 degree flat. If they get 172 degree flat seats they say they wake up when they start sliding off.
May 16th, 2016 at 7:34:10 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
In my world getting upgraded to a business contour seat to cross the Atlantic was about as good as I have had it.


You had your upgrades in the wrong era ;)


Quote:
But I understand that many business flyers want 180 degree flat. If they get 172 degree flat seats they say they wake up when they start sliding off.


As things go upmarket, and the more so when you don't pay for them, people tend to want even more.

I wonder just how overpriced business and especially first class seats really are. Lufthansa has a first class terminal in Frankfurt (I think, it's at one of their hubs). Among many perks, passengers are driven to their flight.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
May 16th, 2016 at 2:17:35 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Nareed
I wonder just how overpriced business and especially first class seats really are. Lufthansa has a first class terminal in Frankfurt (I think, it's at one of their hubs). Among many perks, passengers are driven to their flight.

It seems like the profit margin is considerably higher. If you consider at max they take twice the square footage of the plane, plus the cost of the food and alcohol, plus the nice car to drive you to the plane, plus your share of the showers at the terminal,etc. The price tends to be about 500% for business class and even higher for first class. Even compared to a night at the swankiest hotel and dinner in the best in house restaurant, the price of travel is very high.

You may be in a hotel room for about 14 hours, but for all practical purposes the room is rented for 24 hours. Exceptions are the big hotels near LAX that rent rooms from zero hour to zero hour +24 with the cleaning staff working 24/7. They may get an extra night's rental every few days from people who leave early. But even the longest plane rides of 16-18 hours, often means that you can get another short trip in, and resell that business class seat.

An entire first class terminal means that you can sell expensive restaurant meals, charter regional jets and helicopter charters, plus store footage at a premium price.
May 16th, 2016 at 2:35:04 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
If you consider at max they take twice the square footage of the plane,


I wonder. In a typical 787, an economy row seats 9 people. In first and business, it can be anywhere from 2 to 6 people per row. Let's set aside luxury above first, essentially Etihad, and use the modern, and preferred, 1-2-1 configuration, and say it's 4 people per row. But you also need "leg room" enough for a fully flat bed. Call this three rows of economy per row of 1st or business, perhaps 3.5 in first and 3 in business.

That means four seats in the upper classes replace between 27 and 31.5 seats in economy.

This makes no sense.

So let's assume two rows of economy per row of upper class. We then get 4 seats taking up the room of 18 seats. That means 4.5 times as much room, which fits in nicely with business going for 5 times economy in price. First costs more.

Food isn't that expensive, all things considered, though the preparation should cost a lot more per plate. To be sure there are some expensive ingredients which could add up to the cost of a dish. Take a simple example with a fruit plate, commonly served to accompany desert and breakfast in the upper classes. If you add strawberries, you double the price of a dish with cheaper fruits like melon, papaya and pineapple.

And of course trimmings like caviar are BIG costs. And booze, especially champagne, can easily fly higher even than the X-15 on a really good day.

And now I'm beginning to think it may not be so overpriced....


Quote:
An entire first class terminal means that you can sell expensive restaurant meals, charter regional jets and helicopter charters, plus store footage at a premium price.


You know, though I've read several reviews of Lufthansa's 1st class and its terminal, none mention shops that I can recall. It's more like a big, and very exclusive, airport lounge (complete with showers, baths, sleeping rooms, restaurant, bar, buffet, car to the plane and even WiFi).
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
May 16th, 2016 at 5:12:24 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Nareed
So let's assume two rows of economy per row of upper class. We then get 4 seats taking up the room of 18 seats. That means 4.5 times as much room, which fits in nicely with business going for 5 times economy in price. First costs more.

And now I'm beginning to think it may not be so overpriced....

You are correct! I was just thinking of pitch. Icelandair with 40" pitch in a 757 (2-2 vs 3-3) is about two economy to one Saga class, but Qatar Airways with 78" pitch (2-2-2 vs 3-4-3) is 3.7 economy seats to one business class seat.
Quote: One Mile at a Time
I’ve always been fascinated by Icelandair. A large part of their business model consists of transporting passengers between the US and Europe via their Reykjavik hub, and one of their cool features is that they’ll let you do a free stopover in Iceland for up to seven days. They frequently have reasonable business class fares. For example, it’s not unusual to see business class fares between the US and Europe for around $1,700 with a stopover in Reykjavik, which is great for business class. The only catch is that they don’t really get business class, but rather just a domestic first class product of sorts.




Qatar Airways configuration for B777-300ER


Qatar is competing with Emirates, by offering a little more comfort in business class, but no first class pods. .Qatar business class is 42 flat bed seats with 180 degree recline, while Emirates has a 172 degree recline

rows #5-#7 pitch 78"*3 rows =234" with 18 seats
rows #10-#17 pitch 33"*7 rows=231" with 66 seats
Or a ratio of 3.7 business seats to one economy seat
May 16th, 2016 at 8:51:34 PM permalink
Aussie
Member since: May 10, 2016
Threads: 2
Posts: 458
Also remember that the ratio of passengers to flight attendants is much lower in business and first class than in economy. Probably 20:1 in economy but 3:1 or less in first class. So staff costs are much higher. Also you get additional baggage etc which would also mean a higher fuel burn. The costs of access to lounges etc. I agree that they are creaming it when selling these sorts of fares but it's not JUST about floor space and food.
May 17th, 2016 at 6:46:05 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
You are correct!


That would be amazing, considering it was a mere back of the envelope calculation (without even an envelope!)
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
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