Pilot Fatigue Rules

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Poll
6 votes (60%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (20%)
1 vote (10%)
2 votes (20%)
1 vote (10%)
1 vote (10%)
1 vote (10%)
1 vote (10%)
3 votes (30%)

10 members have voted

May 6th, 2016 at 1:36:50 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Wizard
This was in response to pilot fatigue being an issue plane crash in Buffalo in 2009.


You can read about the crash here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407

The accident not only caused rule changes about pilot fatigue, but also about operational conditions for regional airlines. "The pilots' performance was likely impaired because of fatigue, but the extent of their impairment and the degree to which it contributed to the performance deficiencies that occurred during the flight cannot be conclusively determined." -NTSB report

Bottom line is that pilot's unions support these kind of rules as it simply means more pilots get to work. I doubt that any legal counsel for the airline would approve your "pay a fine" rule.
May 6th, 2016 at 2:01:27 PM permalink
Ayecarumba
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 89
Posts: 1744
What if the passengers who wanted to could sign a waiver and take their chances? I think that would be fair. Sort of like the waiver that folks sign to stay in their houses when everyone is advised to evacuate due to fire, floods, or landslides: "I understand that I am taking on the full risk, even of dying, and that help will not come if called."
May 6th, 2016 at 2:35:31 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
Quote: Ayecarumba
What if the passengers who wanted to could sign a waiver and take their chances? I think that would be fair. Sort of like the waiver that folks sign to stay in their houses when everyone is advised to evacuate due to fire, floods, or landslides: "I understand that I am taking on the full risk, even of dying, and that help will not come if called."


I'm sick of businesses that have the public's lives in their hands trying to shirk their responsibilities by making everyone sign waivers. I would be okay with having to issue a warning and letting passengers off, if they so choose, with the airline responsibility to book them on another flight. However, if one chooses to fly anyway, the airline should still be responsible for their safety and liable if they are negligent.

Also, who voted anarchist, and what is that persona's position?
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
May 6th, 2016 at 2:50:52 PM permalink
Ayecarumba
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 89
Posts: 1744
Quote: Wizard
I'm sick of businesses that have the public's lives in their hands trying to shirk their responsibilities by making everyone sign waivers. I would be okay with having to issue a warning and letting passengers off, if they so choose, with the airline responsibility to book them on another flight. However, if one chooses to fly anyway, the airline should still be responsible for their safety and liable if they are negligent.

Also, who voted anarchist, and what is that persona's position?


I don't think you can have it both ways. The airline is being responsible to the public and their shareholders by grounding the pilot. The time limit might be set arbitrarily, but it is a rule that applies to all. If there were a crash, families of the deceased would not hold back from suing because the airline "trusted the pilot to be okay even though he was a few minutes over the allotted time".

_____________
By definition the anarchist will refrain from answering. I think that is in the cookbook.
May 6th, 2016 at 2:57:13 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Wizard


Also, who voted anarchist, and what is that persona's position?


I'm sorry, I thought it said 'I am the antichrist'.
Never mind..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 6th, 2016 at 3:02:51 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Wizard
Also, who voted anarchist, and what is that persona's position?
No, I didn't vote anarchist. As a matter of fact, few anarchists vote at all. However, I have knowledge of several anarchists who have been from time to time crew members on some not to seaworthy sailboats. You ain't never seen better sailors. They acknowledge orders immediately and jump too immediately. They know what to do and how to do it. They don't argue. They don't debate. Not when its an issue of life or death. A sail changer goes overboard at night in heavy weather, they know the consequences particularly on a none to stable and none too well equipped tub.

Does this make them sound like they are not anarchists. No. That is what anarchists do when they are smart and realize the situation they are in. They are cold, wet and tired and perhaps a bit sick, but when the call comes down "Sail Changers On Deck"...they are on deck instantly. Dressed, alert and capable. Simply because it has to be that way.

Now do you want to switch the scenario from the Sea to the Air...... ain't gonna be much different.

As to some other matters:
Buffalo was not just fatigue but two low timers in the cockpit and a non-sterile cockpit. Poor training, Inadequate experience. In both seats.
Ternerife was caused in large part by strict flight limits.
Sure its nice to have a more flexible rule... but then it becomes a "paper" rule only. Firm and enforced is better than intelligently flexible but never enforced.
With electronic tickets the Next Plane Out rule does not apply. With paper ticket the Next Plane Out rule applies and does NOT mean 'on the same airline' but many passengers do not know that.
A plane's control systems are designed to work with the plane's Center of Gravity within a certain range. Taking off and climbing means the plane is low, slow and dirty. The worst situation for any failure at all, much less a control system failure. Passengers actual weight and passengers presumed weight is different. Luggage weight and stowage area is important. It affects that Center of Gravity location.
Most pilot fatigue is company induced and not just by "hours" but by noisy hotels, remote hotels, poor ground transportation, schedulilng computers and rules about personal flying prior to scheduled flying. Just as we hold McDonald's liable for working a burger flipper to death so much that he falls asleep on a narrow winding road, we should hold the airlines liable for low time pilots who are often on welfare or near it to outrageous schedules.

The laws of physics apply at all times. Despite passenger votes or pilots skirting some rules.
May 6th, 2016 at 3:04:27 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Ayecarumba
I don't think you can have it both ways.


Hear, hear!

One of the biggest overall problems in modern air travel is that people want to have t all ways. They want cheaper fares but lots of leg room and no fees, and also a meal onboard. they want lots of frequencies, but no delays. They want absolute safety, but no inconvenient safety rules that might cause more delays.

Despite popular belief, planes don't "fly themselves." A bad decision by a tired pilot, or failure to note a small detail after a long day of flying, can spell disaster for everyone aboard a plane.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
May 6th, 2016 at 3:29:32 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Wizard



To resume, the pilot went on the PA system and explained that because of there was some confusion about how the luggage was stored they had to take some extra time before take off, and those extra minutes caused the pilot to go over his maximum flying time by five minutes. Evidently, the maximum flying time on domestic flights is 8 or 9 hours. This was in response to pilot fatigue being an issue plane crash in Buffalo in 2009.


The question for the poll is what do you think about Pilot Fatigue rules?


I had a similar experience flying out if O'hare. Delays meant the plane was a cattle car. Because people pack so much the luggage was over. Crew was trying to find out if anyone was under 14 or so to lower the passenger weight. Then they put a few bags on a twin flight and said if your bag was missing to check the other flight bags. Then because of the delay a stewardess goes over hours and has to swap out. By this point some old bat behind me wants on another flight but wants booked in her seat! I wanted to strangle her myself.

But what of safety? Pilots have really a load on their shoulders, lives of hundreds in their hands, many times a day. They take safety serious. FAA regs are hard and fast for a reason--to keep the Frank Lorenzos of the world from nickel and diming safety. There are abuses to be sure, famous ones like the pilot who stopped in Seattle because of he was too tired to fly to Asia, plane full of people stranded. OTOH, look at how many truckers get coerced by the system to cheat. The idea is the FAA is a big stick to keep airlines in line.
The President is a fink.
May 6th, 2016 at 3:48:34 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Why not pilot less aircraft?

Another question. Would airbags like the ones installed in auto's, increase airline safety during a crash?
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
May 6th, 2016 at 3:53:04 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: petroglyph
Would airbags like the ones installed in auto's, increase airline safety during a crash?


I highly doubt it. A car crash is easier to detect and is at maybe 1/10 the speed. That alone means the bag would have to inflate 10Xs as fast.

Bottom line is you "survive" an air crash by preventing it. Chances of survival are very low in the first place.
The President is a fink.
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