Conscientious objector prerogative

It was and is not as simple as saying, "I don't want to go." I was in college during the Gulf War and a very few people were signing up to go, I mean a very few. At the time the Army even told people that it would probably be over before they left for basic training. At the same time. there were articles about what would happen if there was a draft and what happened in Vietnam.

Seems a few people were so not wanting to go they would cut their trigger finger off. Not many, but talk about not wanting to go! The article debunked the ruse of saying you were gay to get out of going. Said the Army was on to that one and you would be directed to a shrink for a long discussion to ferret you out and of course your record would be stamped with that forever. Same with religious objections. Using the Quaker example, you would probably be asked a ton of questions about why the recent conversion.

The military wants no part of any draft anymore. If things got really hairy it could happen of course. But America will never again win a war that lasts long enough that we have to draft people. I don't see the USA winning another war that takes more than a year and has a very simple objective. Finally, no way this country today would make half the sacrifices it took to win WWII.

FWIW I tried to get in the reserves during the Iraq War and was classified 4-F. That ended that idea and fast.

Quote: Evenbob

Myth: Common belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.

Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.

Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.

Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better.

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.

Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. A major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

How do you figure that we (Australian forces were a small part as well) didn't lose? The result was a withdrawal of American-led forces and Sth Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia becoming communist. That memorial I saw last time I visited Washington DC with the tens of thousands of names of young American men who died shows what an utter waste of life the whole thing was given the objective was not met.

Quote: Aussie

How do you figure that we (Australian forces were a small part as well) didn't lose? The result was a withdrawal of American-led forces and Sth Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia becoming communist. That memorial I saw last time I visited Washington DC with the tens of thousands of names of young American men who died shows what an utter waste of life the whole thing was given the objective was not met.

South Vietnam would have survived had support not been cut off by Congress. Had we treated it more like the Koreas it would not have been overrun. In the end though I agree, a waste and folly of LBJ.

Quite right. That just makes it a case of won (well drew in this case I suppose) the battle but lost the war.

Quote: Evenbob

Myth: Common belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.

Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.

Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.

Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better.

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.

Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. A major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

Bob, you are the king of 'no source' posting. Got any for this? never mind, easily found, more than one source

http://www.uswings.com/about-us-wings/vietnam-war-facts/

As for Ali, seems to me he failed in his attempt to be considered a conscientious objector, since he did indeed pay the price by prison time and having his titles taken away from him. If he had served he would have had it made, probably going around in USO shows.

Seemed to me the movie 'Platoon' was a chronicle of service in units with a lot of draftees. Watching it again recently, this time I was frankly stunned to see how Af/Am draftees were portrayed. The feedback we got from returning veterans was that it really sucked to be in combat with the black draftees. This is anecdotal and sometimes came from guys with other issues with Af/Ams, and such guys might have just thrown that out there. On the other hand, the way it was described was just like it was portrayed in that movie!

Quote: Evenbob

. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. A major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

??
Khe Sanh

" On 13 July 1968, Ho Chi Minh sent a message to the soldiers of the Route 9–Khe Sanh Front affirming their victory at Khe Sanh. It was the first time in the war that the Americans abandoned a major combat base because of enemy pressure"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khe_Sanh

Quote: Aussie

How do you figure that we (Australian forces were a small part as well) didn't lose? The result was a withdrawal of American-led forces and Sth Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia becoming communist. That memorial I saw last time I visited Washington DC with the tens of thousands of names of young American men who died shows what an utter waste of life the whole thing was given the objective was not met.

From Vietnam War: Facts, Stats & Myths:

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.
58,148 were killed in Vietnam.

So, 0.64% of American forces who served at the time were killed in Vietnam. I would not say that constitutes a military loss of the war. In my opinion, had the military been allowed to fight the war any way they wanted, they would have won. However, it would have been at a huge cost of civilian life.

The way I would put it is that we, as a country, lost the war but the military did not. We, at home, lost our will to win.

Who would have predicted that in 2016 there would be casinos in Vietnam?

Quote: Wizard

From Vietnam War: Facts, Stats & Myths:

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.
58,148 were killed in Vietnam.

So, 0.64% of American forces who served at the time were killed in Vietnam. I would not say that constitutes a military loss of the war. In my opinion, had the military been allowed to fight the war any way they wanted, they would have won. However, it would have been at a huge cost of civilian life.

The way I would put it is that we, as a country, lost the war but the military did not. We, at home, lost our will to win.

Who would have predicted that in 2016 there would be casinos in Vietnam?

The body bags after the Tet offensive lost the war. The US military didn't.

The VC and NAVN were soundly beaten back in most cases, even at Hue, where the damage to city was massive. The North Vietnamese felt they couldn't cope with another Tet in the immediate, and nor did the US. The VC was pretty broken by the Tet offensive, but the change in mood in the US made the Northern Vietnamese keep up pressure, but more by regular arms. The VC losses were replaced by more and more NAVN regulars, and as the US left, it became a North/South fight, with the South badly led. They had a vast majority in force of arms, but lack of oil, US support and lack will led to the eventual defeat.

Military conscription is temporary slavery with a much higher than normal chance of being killed. It shouldn't merely be ended, it should be outlawed. Any politician who formally suggests reviving it, should be stripped of his office and sent to prison for life.