Super cheap way to get to Europe

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August 8th, 2016 at 3:23:37 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9766
Quote: DRich
Paco, do you know what the fuel burn rate for each one is per passenger mile? I would think that would be a huge factor.


I'd like to now the actual sale price. The list price is like the net profit in Hollywood: hypothetical.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
August 8th, 2016 at 4:50:27 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 636
Posts: 7249
Quote: DRich
Paco, do you know what the fuel burn rate for each one is per passenger mile? I would think that would be a huge factor.


Obviously any calculation like that would have to compare a common configuration. The airline is obviously not trying to configure for the lowest fuel burn rate for each passenger mile. They are trying to configure for maximum revenue, and it depends on how much luxury seating they can sell.

That said, many airlines are configuring A320 for nearly maximum number of seats, so it does look like the Bombardier aircraft are cheaper.

Fuel Cost (per Seat per NM)
5.09 cents CS300
6.53 cents CS100
7.33 cents A320 new engine option
8.71 cents A320 current engine option
8.17 cents B737-800

11.37 cents A380


But Delta flies with 76 seats in a Canadian Regional Jet CRJ-900 . They have 65 seats in a CRJ-700, and 50 seats in a CRJ-100 or CRJ-200

So when Delta orders 75 CS100 planes with options for 50 more, they are probably going to upgrade the routes they are flying CRJ-100/200/700 to larger planes (they have 210 of these planes).

A CS100 is 35.0 meters long and carries 108 passengers, but is certified for up to 127 passengers with 28" pitch.
A CRJ900 is 36.2 meters long and carries 76 to 90 passengers

So presumably Delta may still fly the CS100 with 76 seats so they can use the lower paid Delta Connection pilots, but they will have more premium seats.

Delta also has 116 McDonnell Douglas MD-88 with 149 which are to be replaced by Airbus A321 and Bombardier CS100. Presumably some of the routes will be downgraded to Delta Connection, but the CS100 will still allow more premium seats than a CRJ900.

I don't think the pilot's unions are going to budge on the 76 seat rule very soon.
August 8th, 2016 at 7:02:41 PM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 18
Posts: 597
Quote: Pacomartin

Fuel Cost (per Seat per NM)
5.09 cents CS300
6.53 cents CS100
7.33 cents A320 new engine option
8.71 cents A320 current engine option
8.17 cents B737-800

11.37 cents A380


Wow, that is a huge difference between the CS300 and the 737-800. Hopefully the 737Max is a lot more efficient,
August 8th, 2016 at 7:44:03 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 636
Posts: 7249
Quote: DRich
Wow, that is a huge difference between the CS300 and the 737-800. Hopefully the 737Max is a lot more efficient,


Fuel Cost (per Seat per NM)
6.29¢ 737-Max9

Quote: Bombardier
The C Series family of aircraft, representing the fusion of performance and technology, is the only 100%-new family of airliners specifically designed for the 100- to 150-seat, single-aisle market. Benefitting from a clean-sheet design that includes leading-edge technology and systems integration, advanced materials and latest-generation aerodynamics, the C Series aircraft offer over 15% cash operating cost advantage, over 20% fuel burn advantage, exceptional operational flexibility, widebody comfort and an unmatched environmental and noise footprint.

The CS300 aircraft offers the best seat-mile cost in its category, making it the most profitable solution for mid-sized markets with up to 160 passengers per flight, and ideal for a range of routes, including those serving transcontinental markets.

Both the CS100 and the CS300 possess a range of over 3,000 nautical miles, meaning they can easily connect far-flung points. At challenging airports, the CS100 has up to 50% range advantage over re-engined 100-seat aircraft due to its focus on the 100- to 150-seat market

As the C Series is entirely purpose-built and specifically designed for the 100- to 150-seat market, many cost-saving advantages have been built in, such as an
optimized five-abreast cabin and advanced materials. The result is an aircraft that is up to 12,000 lb. lighter than its competitors.


While the CS3000 is certainly a smaller plane than the 737 MAX 7, it might give it a run for the shorter domestic flights considering it costs a lot less.

COMPARISON 737 MAX 7 | CS3000
Seating 138 in 2 class to 170+ | 108 (8J + 100Y) to 133
Length 116 ft 9 in | 114 ft 9 in
Wingspan 117 ft 10 in | 115 ft 1 in


Video of first one delivered.
August 9th, 2016 at 4:26:01 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 46
Posts: 3795
What is the 'proper' mix of luxury seating?

For Arabs... they fly in nothing else unless they are low level technicians being sent some where.

For Indonesians, its vital. Important men are boarded in the first row, then other male passengers then females.

For business travelers a bit more space and a higher number of free drinks is necessary particularly when paid by the employer.

For some travelers .... shortest flight is important and sardine class is tolerable.

I think back to regulated fares and the airlines promoted such things as stewardess uniforms, colors of the planes, on board food service quality, booze options.

I wonder if WalMart Airlines will have only one class of tickets?
August 9th, 2016 at 7:01:58 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 636
Posts: 7249
Quote: Fleastiff
What is the 'proper' mix of luxury seating?


Obviously the mix is that which maximizes revenue and also is most likely to guarantee no cash flow problems. Most attempts at all business class have resulted in irregular flows of cash.

An Airbus A319 costs $89.6 million Fuel Cost per Nautical Mile= $12.94 Fuel Cost per Seat per NM= 10.44¢
(so they are assuming 124 seats)

A Bombardier CS100 costs $71.5 million Fuel Cost per Nautical Mile= $7.05 Fuel Cost per Seat per NM= 6.53¢
(so they are assuming 108 seats)

A Bombardier CS300 costs $82 million Fuel Cost per Nautical Mile= $6.62 Fuel Cost per Seat per NM= 5.09¢
(so they are assuming 130 seats)



A319 first flew on 24 August 1995 and there are only 17 orders in the backlog. So presumably when the CS300 is first delivered the current engine option for A319 plane will never be ordered again.

Deliveries
Type Orders Backlog Total 2016 2015 2014 2013 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008
A319 1,472 17 1,455 2 24 34 38 38 47 51 88 98
August 9th, 2016 at 7:07:15 AM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 5
Posts: 151
Quote: Wizard
I did that when I flew between Baltimore and Hamburg in 2000. Spent a few days in and around Reykjavik. Wish I would have had more time to see other parts of Iceland.


Been to 70 or so countries. (I count Vatican City as a unique country... etc...). Driving the 'Ring Road' totally around Iceland was a highlight. You would stop at sights that anywhere else would have a tourist town built up around it, but in Iceland you could almost be alone. VERY EXPENSIVE for car rental, gas, hotel, food, etc.... but I thought worth every penny....
August 9th, 2016 at 7:20:03 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9766
Quote: Pacomartin
A319 first flew on 24 August 1995 and there are only 17 orders in the backlog.


You know, in all the recent coverage about Boeing's MAX and Airbus' neo, I don't think I've come across an A319neo.

Boeing should really get cracking on a clean slate plane or two. I think they'll wind up copying the C Series if they go with a narrow body, but they'll fins a way to cram 6 seats in rather than 5, which largely negates the gains in personal space from the C Series.

They're well set for wide bodies, but they really ought to be thinking about a replacement for the 777. The 747-8i won't be selling much, and a bigger plane than the 777 will be needed eventually. They should look into reasonable 10-abreast seating (ie by using a wider fuselage rather than narrower seats).
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
August 9th, 2016 at 8:07:35 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9766
Funny how we go from travel tips about cheap fares to thumb-sucking posts regarding the future of commercial aviation :)
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
August 9th, 2016 at 8:58:19 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 636
Posts: 7249
Quote: Nareed
You know, in all the recent coverage about Boeing's MAX and Airbus' neo, I don't think I've come across an A319neo.


Qatar Airways was originally scheduled to be the launch operator of the A319neo, but upgauged its order to the larger A320neo in late 2013. No new launch operator has been named since. In theory 58 orders have been placed, no engine has been certified to operate with the A319neo.

28 | 26 Jan 2012 : Avianca
18 | 8 Nov 2011 : Frontier Airlines
10 | Undisclosed customers
2 | Governments; Executive and Private Jets
58 Total

The advertised price of the CS300 is $70.9M which is considerably cheaper than the advertised $98.5M for A319neo.

In comparison the A320neo has 3,436 orders, and A321neo has 1,190 orders.

It's a good question if the neoA319 will ever be launched, or if Airbus is simply going to concede this category to Bombardier, Embraer, Sukhoi, Mitsubishi and Comac.


The A318 is not expected to be offered as a "neo".
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