Super cheap way to get to Europe

Quote: Pacomartin

Qatar Airways

Watching the Olympics last night, announcer pronounces Qatar incorrectly as "Katar"
Then quickly adds correct pronunciation "Cutter if you prefer"

Quote: Pacomartin

In theory 58 orders have been placed, no engine has been certified to operate with the A319neo.

You could save a lot of fuel operating the plane without engines, couldn't you? :)

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It's a good question if the neoA319 will ever be launched, or if Airbus is simply going to concede this category to Bombardier, Embraer, Sukhoi, Mitsubishi and Comac.

They might wind up sorry if they do. And they might wind up sorry if they don't.

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The A318 is not expected to be offered as a "neo".

Did they sell even 100 of the classic engine type? The most famous are the all-business class BA operates as bankers' shuttles. I've no idea who else flies it.

Quote: Nareed

Did they sell even 100 of the classic engine type? The most famous are the all-business class BA operates as bankers' shuttles. I've no idea who else flies it.

Airbus sold 80 A318s, of which 79 were delivered from 2003 and 2013, and one more in 2015. An incredible 38 of these 80 have already been prematurely retired
The 2 bankers shuttle with only 32 seats are the only one operated by British Airways. Air France operates all 18, and TAROM (Romania) operates their 4. A total of 18 of the 20 executive models are still operating. LATAM retired their 15, and GECAS (charter company) has retired their 12. Frontier Airlines took 9 and retired them amazingly fast (I believe some in less than 2 years). They were more valuable as parts than to be sold as complete airlines.

Air France operates them with 18 business class + 86 economy = 112

Airline orders-deliveries-operate
British Airways 2 2 2
Air France 18 18 18
TAROM 4 4 4

LATAM Airlines Group 15 15 zero
GECAS 12 12 zero
Frontier Airlines 9 9 zero

Airbus Executive and Private Aviation 20 20 18

While Boeing gets a lot of criticism for giving up on whole markets with their limited design options, Airbus seems to get creamed when they try and make a specialty aircraft. They expected a big demand from inner city airports with short runways, but it never materialized.

Quote: Pacomartin

Airbus sold 80 A318s, of which 79 were delivered from 2003 and 2013, and one more in 2015. An incredible 38 of these 80 have already been prematurely retired

I was certain the number had to be under 100. I'm surprised, though, that nearly half have been retired already.

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Air France operates them with 18 business class + 86 economy = 112

More like an overgrown regional jet than a mainline narrow body.

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Airbus Executive and Private Aviation 20 20 18

Pretty much that's where you'd expect it to be successful for a long time

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While Boeing gets a lot of criticism for giving up on whole markets with their limited design options, Airbus seems to get creamed when they try and make a specialty aircraft.

My point about no A319neo. They can let Bombardier and the rest have that market, which might hurt them when/if the little guys bite into A320 territory. Or they can compete with the little guys and perhaps get creamed again due to higher capital and operating costs.

Not related (as if anyone can tell), but you know what I'd like to see? A break from the twin-engine-on-the-wings silhouette. It's almost as if every airplane is made with aluminum dough and a cookie cutter :) Aside from the A380, A340 and 747, this monotony is only broken by the leftover DC-9/MD80/88/90/B-717 and older, smaller regional jets.

I miss jets with engines on the tail, or with three engines (and in particular with three engines on the tail).

Quote: Nareed

My point about no A319neo. They can let Bombardier and the rest have that market, which might hurt them when/if the little guys bite into A320 territory. Or they can compete with the little guys and perhaps get creamed again due to higher capital and operating costs.

Boeing only has 60 orders from three airlines for the B737 Max 7 (smallest version)
30 Dec 13, 2011 Southwest Airlines
25 Sep 26, 2013 WestJet Airlines (Canada)
5 Dec 15, 2014 Canada Jetlines

In contrast Boeing has multiple orders for the other B737 Max variants
1720 Max 8
418 Max 9
659 unspecified

It is possible that the Canadian airlines only put in an order for the B737-Max #7 because of delays in the CS300

But the CS300 first flew on 27 February 2015 and received an initial type certification on 11 July 2016. It is forecast to enter service in the fourth quarter of 2016 with airBaltic. The model is to compete with the Boeing 737 MAX 7, Airbus A319 NEO, and Irkut MC-21-200.

The Irkut MC-21 is a twin-engine short- to mid-range Russian jet airliner with a capacity of 150-212 passengers. The MC-21 is being developed and to be produced by Irkut and Yakovlev Design Bureau of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) group. Intended to replace the Tupolev Tu-154 and Tupolev Tu-204/214s in service, the MC-21 certification and delivery was initially planned by 2016, but later delayed to the end of 2018.


Delta has a maximum limit of 325 76-seat regional jets permitted by its pilot contract. So it may end up configuring some of the CS100's with only 76 seats.

Pilot Scope for all three airlines compared
http://www.audriesaircraftanalysis.com/2012/12/05/pilot-scope-comparison/

Quote: Pacomartin

Boeing only has 60 orders from three airlines for the B737 Max 7 (smallest version)

It's too small.

Though I suppose Southwest can use it in lieu of actually getting a regional jet...

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In contrast Boeing has multiple orders for the other B737 Max variants

There's talk of developing a MAX 10 to better encroach into A321 territory

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It is possible that the Canadian airlines only put in an order for the B737-Max #7 because of delays in the CS300

I don't think so. My reading strongly implies Air Canada got into the C-Series bandwagon only after being pressured to do so by the Canadian government.

The Delta order, on the other hand, seems sincere.

Quote: Nareed

It's too small. Though I suppose Southwest can use it in lieu of actually getting a regional jet...

Southwest changes their orders all the time, and they can easily convert the order to the B737 8-Max


The First Boeing 737-8 MAX had it's first flight 29. Jan 2016 and is due to be delivered to Southwest soon.
Westjet also has orders for the 737-8 MAX (all Boeing fleet), and Canada Jetlines has some conversion rights for the MAX 8 variant.

So I can't see them actually building the 737-7 Max.

The question is how big is the market actually going to be. Will most mainstream airlines find it more economical to fly only larger planes.

Quote: Pacomartin

Southwest changes their orders all the time, and they can easily convert the order to the B737 8-Max

I thought they have to have one of each at least, or that they own the 737 design :)

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The question is how big is the market actually going to be. Will most mainstream airlines find it more economical to fly only larger planes.

Remember the cure-all for airport traffic and cascading delays is to be found in larger planes? But that airlines, and passengers, value flexibility so much, we wind up with smaller planes and lots of frequencies? Which just make the congestion and delay problem worse?

Well, we're getting bigger planes because of increased demand. I suppose adding bigger planes is cheaper than adding more planes (and congestion can get pretty bad in some places). But this won't solve the problem, because the bigger planes like the MAX8-9 or the A321 are not that much bigger.

Actually I think this is good, as the alternative would be to pack the planes tight like Spirit or RyanAir do.

Quote: Nareed

Remember the cure-all for airport traffic and cascading delays is to be found in larger planes?

I think "cure-all" is an overstatement. But small props require three times the spacing at landing than one narrow body following another one.

One would think that trains combined with fixed wing aircraft would be the cure-all, but Europe has now developed a high cost train system, and the low cost traveler has moved to the air.

I am becoming increasingly convinced that "lighter than air" transport for up to 500 miles may be more effective than trains. Our costly runways should be used for fixed wing aircraft for long distances.