Super cheap way to get to Europe

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September 14th, 2016 at 1:45:21 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
Posts: 7425
Quote: DRich
I like that chart.

What is currently the longest scheduled non-stop in the lower 48? I would guess Miami to Seattle.

The Northeast Airports north of Boston are pretty small, and they don't have transcontinental flights
MHT Manchester Manchester
PWM Portland Portland International Jetport
BTV Burlington Burlington International
Same for Bellingham Washington

I think you are probably correct, but only by 20 miles
SEA MIA 2,724 statute miles (2367 nautical miles)
BOS SFO 2,704 statute miles

Southwest used to be Baltimore to Oakland (2,447 miles), but now it is Los Angeles (LAX) to Liberia, Costa Rica (LIR) (2,627 miles).

In September 2002 Southwest began BWI-LAX flights @ $99 one way which started nonstop transcontinental flights open to Low Cost Carriers. Analysts were skeptical at first thinking that transcontinental flight passengers expected more frills. But the lowest price won. The 737-700 was the first of the Next Generation series when launch customer Southwest Airlines ordered the variant in November 1993. So it took almost a decade between orders and the first use of the plane for a transcontinental flight.
September 14th, 2016 at 2:11:35 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Hypothetical effect of Inexpensive Regional Jets
With 6 destinations in Mexico with over 50 weekly flights, San Antonio Airport SAT is ranked among the nation's top ten gateways to Mexico in terms of seat capacity. Since SAT is the most Mexican of major US cities, that fact is not surprising.

SAT is a medium size airport dwarfed by the primary Texas airports. The longest flight is to Seattle on Alaska Airlines. There are no international flights to any country other than Mexico (not Canada, Central America or Carribbean). This map shows the range of the Sukhoi Superjet 100 (1894 miles), the low cost regional jet operated by INterjet with 93 seats. Interjet has flights to SAT from MTY, MEX and GDL. Southwest nonstop destinations from SAT are also indicated



In theory, Interjet could fly 5th freedom flights from Mexico to San Antonio and on to other USA cities. They may be able to undercut Southwest prices simply because the Russian regional jets only cost $35 million and debt service is very low. Less likely, but still a possibility, is that Northern America will relax it's rules about flying foreign airlines on domestic flights.

Mexican Airlines operating to SAT
Aeroméxico Connect Mexico City, Monterrey
Interjet Guadalajara, Mexico City, Monterrey
Volaris Guadalajara
September 14th, 2016 at 2:21:48 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
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Quote: Pacomartin
Obviously putting 76 seats in a plane is kind of ridiculous. Would you reduce 21 rows to 12 rows? Would you be flying more business class passengers on your regional airline? Or maybe some routes will be upgraded from express routes to mainline routes.


that rule will have to change, because it's now possible to travel from Dallas to South America in a freaking regional jet.

BTW, the name "regional jet" no loner really applies. They're now more like small jets, or maybe thin-route jets.

I said before the prophecy of larger planes was right, only as applied to "regional" jets rather than mainline ones. But as planes grow larger, they can also carry more fuel and therefore fly further (it's the cube law, rather straightforward). The end result is "regional" jets can now travel so far as to make a mockery of the notion of a region.

In the meantime transatlantic planes have been growing smaller and larger. on the one hand we get the 787-8, on the other the 747-8i and the A380. But with the rise of Icelandic airlines offering cheaper fares to Europe, we're seeing 757s and even A320s used in some routes; WOW flies an A320/1 from Keflavik to BWI, for instance.

So what happens when "regional" jets grow bigger, say the CS500 or a bigger E3 Embraer, with capacity for 150 passengers, that could cross the Atlantic in certain shorter routes?
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 14th, 2016 at 3:09:18 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
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Quote: Nareed
BTW, the name "regional jet" no longer really applies. They're now more like small jets, or maybe thin-route jets.

So what happens when "regional" jets grow bigger, say the CS500 or a bigger E3 Embraer, with capacity for 150 passengers, that could cross the Atlantic in certain shorter routes?


The term "regional jet" was used even before the airline deregulation in 1978. Because the original pilot scoping clause was up to 50 seat jets, and that was the standard developed by Embraer, the FAA keeps statistics on jets up to 60 seats. However, they use the term "air taxi" instead of "regional jet". It's a little confusing because the FAA also refers to "air taxis" as on demand air charters that are similar to automobile taxis. Unlike automobile taxis, sometimes you can buy just one seat on a prescheduled air taxi route.

The air taxi market is a little different than the "air charter" market in that most taxi companies have a list of preapproved airports that they will fly to. They tend to be more popular in Florida, Texas or in Britain where there are a lot of small airports relatively close to one another. Often the smaller air taxis only have emergency facilities under a seat instead of lavatories. Needless to say this makes flying in very light jets not for most people. The routes are limited more the weakest bladders than by the range of the aircraft.

Quote: 50 Seat Regional Jet Timeline

November 1987 Bombardier launches full advanced design phase of its Canadair Regional Jet
March 1988 Shorts announces it will develop a 44-seat jet known as the FJX
March 1989 Full go-ahead for the CRJ announced by Bombardier chief executive Laurent Beaudoin, with type having secured 56 commitments
June 1989 Bombardier agrees to buy Shorts, halting development of the FJX
May 1990 First firm contract for CRJ signed by Lufthansa, with 13 orders and 12 options in $250 million deal
February 1991 First flight of the CRJ
October 1992 Launch customer Lufthansa CityLine takes charge of first CRJ delivery
February 1994 Flight West Airlines becomes the first airline to place a firm order for the ERJ-145, for four aircraft
August 1995 First flight of the ERJ-145
September 1996 Continental Airlines places the largest aircraft order of ERJs - 250 aircraft
December 1996 First delivery of ERJ-145 to launch customer Continental ExpressJet
2006 Bombardier delivers last 50-seat CRJ and concentrates production on 70- to 100-seat CRJ700/900/1000 variants
2011 Embraer delivers last passenger ERJ-145, a Chinese-assembled aircraft for Hainan Airlines


Even though Delta's 50 seat jets are not that old, they want to retire them in favor of 76 seat jets. In some cases Delta will downsize from MD-88 and replace them with CS-100. As I said earlier, it is not clear how many of the 75 CS100's they ordered are going to which use. Perhaps they don't know themselves, as they may be waiting on future negotiations with the pilots. If they don't budge on the 76 seat limit, they will use all of them to replace the Mad Dogs. Delta also has an option to purchase more jets.

Bombardier CRJ-200 (50 seats) {Delta Connection}
38 Endeavor Air
40 ExpressJet
47 SkyWest Airlines

116 McDonnell Douglas MD-88 (149 seats)
September 15th, 2016 at 6:43:42 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 10008
Quote: Pacomartin
The term "regional jet" was used even before the airline deregulation in 1978.


I use the term as he aviation bloggers do. Pretty much any plane, even if not a jet, in scheduled commercial service for under 76 passengers, which is primarily flown by an affiliate or partner of a major airline, usually on shorter routes, often to feed large hubs. In the old days they were called "commuter jets," which was really funny, as if people regularly took a plane for their daily commute (yes, I know airline crews do this often, and I suppose there are others as well).


On other news, Volaris took delivery of its first A320neo, making it the first airline in North America to operate the type. Apparently it will be packed with 186 seats! I think that's what Spirit does.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 16th, 2016 at 11:09:42 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
Posts: 7425
Quote: Nareed
that rule will have to change, because it's now possible to travel from Dallas to South America in a freaking regional jet.


Delta ordered 75 CS100 and has not ordered any of the larger CS300's yet. But theoretically if the scoping rules change so that the Delta Connection pilots are permitted to fly the CS300 then it may make sense that Delta pilots only fly the international routes and the hub to hub flights. You could probably service the rest of the nation with lower paid pilots from the Delta Connection flying the CS100 and CS300.

Delta Hubs
  1. Detroit Metropolitan Airport
  2. Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport
  3. John F. Kennedy International Airport (New York City)
  4. Logan International Airport (Boston)
  5. Los Angeles International Airport
  6. Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport
  7. Salt Lake City International Airport
  8. Seattle–Tacoma International Airport
  9. LaGuardia Airport (New York City)
  10. Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport


Billions of Available Seat Miles (2015)
121 Delta Mainline Domestic
26 Regional Domestic
100 International


The exception is probably Honolulu, which is not listed as a Delta hub. Delta has flights from HNL to Atlanta, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City, Seattle/Tacoma Seasonal: Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York–JFK, Portland (OR), San Francisco plus international flights to Japan. You would probably need mainline Delta pilots.
September 17th, 2016 at 9:20:05 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
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Quote: Pacomartin
Delta ordered 75 CS100 and has not ordered any of the larger CS300's yet.


The thinking on the aviation blogs is that they'll "upgrade" some of the order for the 300.

Quote:
But theoretically if the scoping rules change so that the Delta Connection pilots are permitted to fly the CS300 then it may make sense that Delta pilots only fly the international routes and the hub to hub flights. You could probably service the rest of the nation with lower paid pilots from the Delta Connection flying the CS100 and CS300.


Have you heard about the pilot shortage? According to some in the industry, the main cause is the bleak prospect of advance from the regional carriers to the majors. If what I suggested and you propose happens, the shortage will get worse. So either the regionals will have to pay more, or the majors will have to make room for regional pilots to move up.

Or they'll begin hiring illegal pilots from Mexico :)
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 17th, 2016 at 6:09:56 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 648
Posts: 7425
Quote: Nareed
According to some in the industry, the main cause is the bleak prospect of advance from the regional carriers to the majors. If what I suggested and you propose happens, the shortage will get worse. So either the regionals will have to pay more, or the majors will have to make room for regional pilots to move up.


The first Bombardier Canadian Regional Jets were delivered at the end of 1992, but it took a few years until mainline American Airlines pilots were threatened enough that they went on strike. President Clinton intervened in 1997 and ordered them not to strike (they went on a sick-out instead).

At the time pilots were incredibly well paid, and most people were not very sympathetic. I had a good friend who was an American pilot, and he said that the pilots felt that the regional airlines would be an unstoppable force. It was OK with them when the regional airlines simply flew turboprops, but they said that the regional jets would continue to grow larger and with a longer range.

So yes, the regional airlines would have to pay more if they take over all of the feeder flights to the hubs.

But I suspect that United Airlines may simply do it anyway even without a change to the pilot scoping clause. They simply will get tired of competing with Southwest.

From 2015 report
Mainline
Available seat miles (millions) 219,989
Average stage length (miles) 1,922

Regional
Available seat miles (millions) 30,014
Average stage length (miles) 559



Most of the ariports in the country are within 559 miles of a United hub
September 18th, 2016 at 12:40:54 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 47
Posts: 3978
Musings on laxity in terminology.

Regional jets don't have any particular region and don't have to be jets.

Heck, one plane had Turbo on its cowling so the fueler thought TurboJet instead of TurboCharged and added jet fuel to the plane despite it being real hard to fit the jet nozzle into the plane's tanks.

Air taxi and air charter seem interchangeable but are obviously different.

Even riding around in a London Taxi I would not expect to find lavatory facilities but aboard an air taxi I would, particularly with many of the taxi riders being female government officials flying on a priority basis.

Flags of convenience, flags of reality modulated by economic tie-ins and stock ownership, "foreign".

Perhaps we should start over and try to define passenger.... commuters, vacationers, spouses, "spouses", secretaries, technicians, executives, real executives, the Wealthy.

I still can't escape the fears of some Indian pilot with hundreds of hours of experience on paper who doesn't know how to use the seat belt and thinks that planes land on the nose wheel. Yet more and more "foreign" carriers have US and UK citizenship pilots. Burger Flipper economics do not make safe flying conditions. Foreign cultures are secretive and controlling.

Passengers want to go to their destination...NOT their destination's airport. Even rich wives and daughters flying in the "family plane" want to go to town where there are restaurants, men and tourist attractions not to hubby's Man Cave Retreat where the wife has to cook and the daughters can't find any local yokels worth a romp in the hay. Airpark developments in the middle of nowhere don't do as well as airparks near resorts with existing infrastructure.
September 18th, 2016 at 5:49:55 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 10008
So about pilot pay, there were two almost identical notes in Airways:

1) https://airwaysmag.com/newswire/envoy-air-offers-industry-leading-pay-pilots/

2) https://airwaysmag.com/newswire/psa-airlines-announces-industry-leading-pay-new-hire-pilots/
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
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