Super cheap way to get to Europe

July 6th, 2017 at 4:30:21 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Ayecarumba
There's got to be some rules about that somewhere.


The rules vary by country, but they are very similar. I think someone posted them when the Venezuelan plane crashed a few months ago for lack of fuel.

If followed, you'll land with lots of fuel left in the tanks if nothing goes seriously wrong (ie no extra long holds, no need to do more than one go-around, and so on).
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July 6th, 2017 at 5:07:31 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
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Combat takes place at a throttle setting marked Wartime Emergency Use Only. A jet fighter's engine operated at that setting will rarely be repaired or recycled, it will be junked, but the goal is to complete the mission and get back to safety, everyone knows the engines will be hot and the fuel will be getting lower and lower. Most jet fighters have to recalculate fuel loads and balancing shortly after take off since taxiing uses so much fuel. Use of certain weapons can cause a flame out and force a restart attempt at lower altitude.

Airliners have rules and dispatcher release forms but it is clear that too many airliners arrive with 'minimum fuel' which means 'I require prompt but not emergency processing' . "Low fuel" is a meaningless phrase in ATC speak.
July 6th, 2017 at 9:39:44 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
The rules vary by country, but they are very similar. I think someone posted them when the Venezuelan plane crashed a few months ago for lack of fuel.

If followed, you'll land with lots of fuel left in the tanks if nothing goes seriously wrong (ie no extra long holds, no need to do more than one go-around, and so on).


Southwest airlines has a lot of data on B737. For 2016
148,522,051,000 available seat miles / 1,996,000,000 gallons of fuel = 74.41 available seat mile per gallon
but that includes some very old models

Now the Norwegian B737 Max 8 has 189 seats and the fuel tank is 6,820 gallons, which leaves 36.09 gallons per seat.

So Stewart NY to Bergen Norway is 3,456 miles (5562 km) , so 3,456 / 36.09 = 95.77 available seat miles per gallon.

Wikipedia lists fuel efficiency for the (4,000–5,560 km) range as Boeing 737 MAX-8 (110 mpg‑US)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft

So if we believe that number, then the plane can carry 15% (4.67 gallons per seat ) more fuel than necessary. I am assuming that they fill this plane up completely.

But that still implies that you can fly a seat to Norway for less about $60 in fuel.

July 7th, 2017 at 6:18:34 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
but that includes some very old models


And shorter flights. You consume fuel at the highest rate during take off, when the plane is heaviest and you need lots of power just to overcome inertia. the same plane taking two 500 km flights will use up more fuel, all other things being equal, than one taking a 1,000 km flight.
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July 7th, 2017 at 8:46:21 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Five of the Airbus A340-500s with the logo "The longest range aircraft in the world" was delivered to Singapore Airlines in 2004 where they began flights to LAX and EWR.

When configured with 181 seats the fuel tanks could hold 314 gallons per seat (same as the Concorde), but when they reduced it down to 100 business seats a few years later that was 569 gallons per seat (roughly 10X the weight of passengers and luggage).

That's why I said every ultra long range aircraft model sells very small numbers and are retired quickly. That's been true for 40 years.
July 7th, 2017 at 9:36:48 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
That's why I said every ultra long range aircraft model sells very small numbers and are retired quickly. That's been true for 40 years.


Will the 787, A350 and maybe the 777X break this tradition?
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July 7th, 2017 at 10:45:50 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
Will the 787, A350 and maybe the 777X break this tradition?


Well that is kind of difficult to say, as what was once ultra long range is now becoming more standard. The 747SP (45 built), the A340-500 (34 built) and the B777-200LR (59 built) were designed as the ultra long range aircraft of their time. Today the 787-8/9, the A350-900 snf the 777-300ER are flown the same kind of ranges.

But a new class is now redefining ultra long range as well over 9000 miles (starting with the A350-900ULR in 2018). I am thinking that the newest class of ultra long range aircraft will have poor sellers. The A350-900ULR has only 1 buyer, and it remains to be seen about new variations of the 777 .

777-200LR 59 orders and deliveries
777-300ER 815 orders and 731 deliveries


The 30 longest flights as of today are flown by 8 different aircraft
Boeing 777-200LR
Boeing 777-300ER
Boeing 787-9
Boeing 787-8
Airbus A380-800
Airbus A350-900
Airbus A340-300 (aircraft first flown in 1994)

Miles
9,025 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,818 Airbus A380-800
8,574 Airbus A380-800
8,434 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,433 Airbus A350-900
8,433 Boeing 787-9
8,372 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,321 Airbus A380-800
8,315 Boeing 777-300ER
8,288 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,149 Boeing 777-300ER
8,139 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,085 Airbus A380-800
8,054 Boeing 777-300ER
8,053 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,047 Boeing 777-300ER
8,047 Boeing 777-200ER First route over 8000 miles Newark :Hong Kong United Airlines 1 March 2001
8,044 Boeing 777-300ER
8,030 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
8,023 Boeing 777-300ER
8,009 Boeing 787-8
7,984 Boeing 777-300ER
7,967 Airbus A340-300
7,952 Boeing 777-300ER
7,922 Boeing 747-400 (route is oldest of this group of routes | dates back to 31 October 1999)
7,922 Airbus A380-800
7,922 Boeing 787-9
7,922 Boeing 777-300ER
7,921 Boeing 777-300ER
7,914 Boeing 777-200LR <--------
7,914 Boeing 777-300ER
7,842 Boeing 787-9

"Ultra Long Range" is currently informally defined as flights over 7500 miles, which is the distance from California to Sydney, Australia which was first achieved within 6-7 years of the introduction of the widebody aircraft in the 1970's.
July 7th, 2017 at 11:54:02 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Quote: Pacomartin
That's why I said every ultra long range aircraft model sells very small numbers and are retired quickly. That's been true for 40 years.
That is strange. Remember the Aloha Aircraft that blew off its roof and killed four or so people? Its a question of 'duty cycles'. All those short hops in the Islands meant lots of salt corrosion and lots of pressure and depressure cycles so the airplane 'aged' faster than predicted.

Now a long haul flight is not going to age any structural members or anything except engines and even the engines are probably not operating at full throttle they way they would at TOGA settings.

So an older plane on long haul duty should be a bargain. Yeah, fuel-flying is not passenger-flying and only passenger flying earns revenue but once a pilot has been hired and his relief pilot is dozing that airframe is not being stressed and no added expenses are taking place.

Switch the plane to short haul route and you can still fly empty tanks if you want to.
July 7th, 2017 at 12:26:45 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
Well that is kind of difficult to say, as what was once ultra long range is now becoming more standard.


"kind of"? :)

My feeling is that the 787 does well enough in regular long haul (7-10 hours) and ultra-long haul (12-16+ hours), that it can be used almost interchangeably in both roles.
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September 24th, 2017 at 9:35:11 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569


This image shows the ranges listed on the WOW aircraft website: 11,100 km; 5,950 km; 6,150 km; and 6,850 km

Technical info:
Type Max takeoff weight Range Engines Cruising speed
Airbus A330-300 235,000 kg 11,100 km 2xRR-Trent700 Mach 0.86
Airbus A321-200 93,500 kg 5,950 km with Sharklets 2xCFM-56 Mach 0.82
Airbus A320-200 78,000 kg 6,150 km 2xIAE-V2500 Mach 0.82
Airbus 321-200neo 93,500 kg 6,850 km with Sharklets 2xCFM LEAP-1A Mach 0.82
Airbus 320-200neo 79,000 kg 6,850 km with Sharklets 2xCFM LEAP-1A Mach 0.82

https://wowair.us/about-us/wow-aircraft/meet-the-wow-fleet/