World Youth Day in Poland

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August 11th, 2016 at 2:26:49 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You also continue to give no credence to the historical times and the context of these acts in question.


So you think there will come a time when
we say, oh, those Nazis and what they did,
it's not so bad, you have to consider the
historical times and put their actions in
context.

That will never happen and you know it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 11th, 2016 at 2:30:54 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
That will never happen because it wasn't individual Nazis doing what their party or leader did not want them to do. They also did the most horrible act of genocide in human history and they did so in the 20th century. They haven't existed for 2,000 some years and as far as I am concerned contributed nothing but evil to the world.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 11th, 2016 at 3:08:16 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
That will never happen because .


It will never happen for the Church either,
because human rights violations are heinous
no matter what historical period they occur
in. Pagans hate the Church, and for good reason.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 11th, 2016 at 8:22:56 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
You also continue to give no credence to the historical times and the context of these acts in question.


You don't get to do that. You have said repeatedly that what is right and wrong is absolute and unchanging. Either they did wrong or they didn't, regardless of the context.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 11th, 2016 at 8:59:28 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
You don't get to do that. You have said repeatedly that what is right and wrong is absolute and unchanging. Either they did wrong or they didn't, regardless of the context.


Oh they did wrong, that is objective, absolute, and unchanging. However, it was very often the case that the Church was doing significantly less wrong than the other states, leaders, and institutions that existed at the time. This is not an excuse and it is not a justification, but it needs to be taken into account.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 11th, 2016 at 9:24:58 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Oh they did wrong, that is objective, absolute, and unchanging. However, it was very often the case that the Church was doing significantly less wrong than the other states, leaders, and institutions that existed at the time. This is not an excuse and it is not a justification, but it needs to be taken into account.


Every time you bring this lame defense up,
I remind you it's the defense of a child.
"I did wrong, mommy, but Bobby did far
worse last week." Like that makes what
you did OK.

You do this so you can live with yourself
for being connected with such a heinous
organization. We all do what we have to
do.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 11th, 2016 at 9:43:37 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Really, a heinous organization. I will but the Church's long history and its current history against any government in the world. What you don't get is the historical context and the sinfulness of people do not mean that the organization is heinous, give me a break.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 11th, 2016 at 10:43:31 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
Oh they did wrong, that is objective, absolute, and unchanging. However, it was very often the case that the Church was doing significantly less wrong than the other states, leaders, and institutions that existed at the time. This is not an excuse and it is not a justification, but it needs to be taken into account.


There were probably times when they were the worst.

Then, across their long history, you could add it all up. Not much different from other religions, countries, and organizations committing atrocities.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/mar/13/catholicism.religion

Also search for this doc titled "Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages and later" if the following link does not work:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc&ved=0ahUKEwje_pbblrvOAhUC1CYKHZFGDSIQFgglMAM&usg=AFQjCNEAlIKeb6ADhZR_D8_uLIhP-GwtMA&sig2=qHEKrZPB4eW6Zq2nF0XxhQ

You also don't get to balance all of the good the church has done against the bad. That would imply that there is a certain amount of good that could be done to offset some evil act. How much good would a person have to do in order to be forgiven for murder?

The questions are simple. Either they have done evil or they haven't. With the responsible parties dead, then either the organization that they represented should be held responsible, or it shouldn't.

The Pope asking for forgiveness is accepting responsibility for their actions, and asking to be forgiven for them.

Who has the right to accept or reject the apology, and decide if forgiveness should be granted or if something more needs to be done?

If they won't accept anyone's authority to decide whether or not to grant forgiveness, then it is a pretty empty gesture.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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