Challenge to FrGamble

Quote: FrGamble

Hold your horses, you skipped #2. .

No I didn't. I mentioned it in my first post
because it ties into number #1. Science
has exhaustively proven prayer doesn't
work, it's an exercise in self gratification.
Places like Lourdes have been studied
for over a hundred years and have been
shown to be no more effective than
random chance. But of course you worship
at the feet of urban legend, where facts
are meaningless.

Lourdes is a tourist trap.

"Only 67 'miracles' have been validated by the Church. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage to Lourdes. For those who care, that's a success rate of .0000335% or 1 out of every 3 million. Furthermore, since 1947 anyone claiming a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914."* Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures. So, if you're thinking of going to Lourdes for a miracle cure, the odds are not very high in your favor."

1 in 3 million is far worse than random
chance. Why did you even mention the
place.

Quote: Evenbob

You have no evidence, it's all in your
imagination.

It is most definitely NOT in my imagination. Why would you say that? Do you have evidence that it is only in my imagination? I promise you that you could experience it too.

Quote: Evenbob

No I didn't. I mentioned it in my first post
because it ties into number #1. Science
has exhaustively proven prayer doesn't
work, it's an exercise in self gratification.

Ha, talk about urban legend. Please stop trying to stuff prayer into a test tube. How do you control for this? How do you deal with the misconception these scientific tests have about prayer, which you have not addressed as of yet?

Quote:

1 in 3 million is far worse than random
chance. Why did you even mention the
place.

What is the random chance for a miraculous cure do you think? Are you taking into consideration all the many cures that are not reported and gone through the extensive investigation by the Church? Are you accounting for all the spiritual miracles of hearts and lives that are changed? Go to Lourdes and it will change your life. If this is way below the random chance healing number what percentage of cures happen at the Grand Canyon, there are a lot of people that go there every year?

It's a long and funny story, but I did get deathly ill at Lourdes when I went. I also learned how to smoke a cigar while in Lourdes.

Quote: FrGamble

t? Do you have evidence that it is only in my imagination?

More to the point, you have zero evidence
it's not just your imagination. That's why
the man who offered 1 million to anybody
who could prove the supernatural is real
still has his money. Subjective experience
is anecdotal at best, and mostly worthless.

I could take peyote and experience lots
of gods. Means nothing. You've taught
yourself how to do it without a drug.
Still means nothing to anybody but you.

Quote: FrGamble

these scientific tests have about prayer, which you have not addressed as of yet?

Some of the hospital prayer tests took
years by universities and cost millions.
They all showed prayer healed exactly
at the same level as random chance.

Quote:

What is the random chance for a miraculous cure do you think? .

0%, miracles don't exist. You're desperate,
so the tiniest thing is miracle to you.
Somebody goes to Lourdes and stops
sniffling and isn't farting crossways
anymore and it's a miracle. You never
hear about the millions who felt nothing,
or got worse. They don't count.

Quote: Evenbob

Subjective experience
is anecdotal at best, and mostly worthless.

Witness testimony is very important.

Quote: Evenbob

Some of the hospital prayer tests took
years by universities and cost millions.
They all showed prayer healed exactly
at the same level as random chance.

Again the hypothesis of the experiment was based on a misunderstanding of prayer.

Quote:

0%, miracles don't exist.

The evidence says a very different thing.

Quote:

You never
hear about the millions who felt nothing,
or got worse. They don't count.

You don't go to Lourdes and feel nothing. Like me you might feel physically worse, but you feel loved.

Quote: FrGamble

but you feel loved.

You turn every topic into love, you seem
obsessed with it. What you need is a little
dog, he'll teach you what real love is.
Maybe then you can get over your idealized
idea of it.

Quote: FrGamble

What is the random chance for a miraculous cure do you think?

I have seen this line of argument used before and it is basically used by people who can't comprehend that even events with a minuscule chance of occurring do happen. They take the position that because the chance of something happening it so tiny then it couldn't possibly have happened. Of course the reality is that these things DO occur. A combination of numbers will be randomly drawn the next time you have a power ball drawing and the chance of that specific event happening will be in the hundred of millions to one. The god people would argue that something with such a tiny chance of happening couldn't possibly occur. Wrong.

Quote: Aussie

I have seen this line of argument used before and it is basically used by people who can't comprehend that even events with a minuscule chance of occurring do happen. They take the position that because the chance of something happening it so tiny then it couldn't possibly have happened. Of course the reality is that these things DO occur. A combination of numbers will be randomly drawn the next time you have a power ball drawing and the chance of that specific event happening will be in the hundred of millions to one. The god people would argue that something with such a tiny chance of happening couldn't possibly occur. Wrong.

By definition naturalism/atheism says the random chance of a miracle is 0 so there is no chance, minuscule or otherwise. I think that may have been F.R.s point.