Challenge to FrGamble

Quote: FrGamble

We are talking about a real historical event.

Would you be very impressed if I called the Trojan War as recounted in the Iliad a "real historical event"?

Because there is like a great deal more evidence for it than for the central myth of your faith.

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A few guys who say they think they saw the Resurrected Jesus are not going to inspire what historically took place.

Are you being purposefully obscure in your phrasing?

It's not hard for a few people with delusions high in intensity to whip up a largely fanatical community into a frenzy. It's not that hard to whip up a non-fanatical community into a frenzy, either. the fact that you're invested in this particular belief, doesn't make it any less true.


"If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?"
"No! Who's playing first!"
"Stay off of first, will you!"
"What do you want me to do?"
"I just want to know what's the guy's name on first base."
"What's the guy's name on second base."
"I'm not asking you who's on second!"
"Who's on first."
"I don't know."
"Third base!"

Quote: Nareed

Would you be very impressed if I called the Trojan War as recounted in the Iliad a "real historical event"?

Because there is like a great deal more evidence for it than for the central myth of your faith.

This is just crazy talk. The evidence for the reality of the Resurrection is not just historical but it is living. It is constantly renewed and growing, why do you think that is? It is because the Resurrection is not just an actual historical event in the past, billions of people experience the effects of the Resurrection every single day in their prayer and through the Sacraments.

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It's not hard for a few people with delusions high in intensity to whip up a largely fanatical community into a frenzy. It's not that hard to whip up a non-fanatical community into a frenzy, either. the fact that you're invested in this particular belief, doesn't make it any less true.

It is hard for a couple of fisherman to do that but what is impossible is for this frenzied group to maintain what they had never truly seen or experienced in the face of persecution or worldly distractions. Nor is it possible to sustain this delusion based belief for generations as those who are further and further removed from the whipped up frenzy cannot possibly hold a belief, especially when it is under attack. Now let's focus on reality. We are talking about a faith that has existed now for over 2,000 years and is the largest religion in the world and continues to grow. Can you with a straight face continue to propose that a couple of fisherman saw a delusion and whipped up a frenzied 12 people and that Christianity as we know it today is the result?!? What makes much more sense is that Jesus truly Resurrected from the dead proving He was truly God and that this inspired the Apostles to all spread the Good News that they had personally witnessed no matter the cost to the ends of the world. The next generation did not only have the witness of the Apostles but they themselves in prayer and a relationship with the Risen Lord knew that the faith was true and continued the momentum of the faith until today.

Quote: FrGamble

The evidence for the reality of the Resurrection is not just historical

No, we're talking about an uncorroborated event
not even written about till decades after it happened.
It's anecdotal, not historical.

uncorroborated; not confirmed or supported by other evidence or information

anecdotal; not reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Quote: FrGamble

The evidence for the reality of the Resurrection is not just historical but it is living. It is constantly renewed and growing, why do you think that is? It is because the Resurrection is not just an actual historical event in the past, billions of people experience the effects of the Resurrection every single day in their prayer and through the Sacraments.

So every time you pray, dead Jesus rises from the grave again?

I think you have your myths mixed up. Sisyphus is the one stuck doing the same thing over and over again. I know, with so many myths and all of them being true, it's hard to keep them straight.

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It is hard for a couple of fisherman to do that but what is impossible is for this frenzied group to maintain what they had never truly seen or experienced in the face of persecution or worldly distractions.

Do you know fanatics? Have you heard of Masada and the Zealots? Do you know what Zealot came to mean? Do you know the word sicario? This also originated with Jewish anti-Roman fanatics.

Keep up a religious frenzy seems hard to you? They did little else back then in Judea.



"When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?"
"Every dollar of it"
"Who does?"
"Why not? The man's entitled to it."
"Who is?
"Absolutely. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it."
"Whose wife?"
"Yes."
"All I want to know is what's the fella's name on first base!"
"What's the fella's name on second base."
"I'm not asking you who's on second!"
"Who's on first."
"I don't know!"
"Third base!"

I think I've covered all the salient points. the bits with the pitcher, catcher and outfielders are as funny, but I can't recall them very well.

Quote: Nareed

They did little else back then in Judea.

To be expected when you live in
a world devoid of science and ruled
by superstition. FrG represents what
the world is trying to get away from.
Having a set template and cramming
everything you see into that template,
even if it doesn't fit.

Science does the exact opposite, it
examines facts & discovers where things
really fit into world, not where a
religion wants them to fit.

Quote: Evenbob

To be expected when you live in
a world devoid of science and ruled
by superstition.

Your prejudice of the people in the past is staggering. They were far from devoid of science. Some of the most amazing scientific discoveries were made during times when there were no computers or the amazing instruments we have today. Do you think if you transported back to that time without the internet you could discover half of what they discovered and scientifically knew.

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Science does the exact opposite, it
examines facts & discovers where things
really fit into world, not where a
religion wants them to fit.

Science and religion work together. Science examines facts and discovers things about the observable and intelligible world we live in. Religion asks the bigger questions as to why our world is intelligible, why are we able to examine and discover things, who are we and where are we going, is there right and wrong, etc.?

Quote: Nareed

So every time you pray, dead Jesus rises from the grave again?

No, Jesus has risen from the grave once and for all. Prayer is the way to invite the living Lord Jesus into our lives.

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Do you know fanatics? Have you heard of Masada and the Zealots? Do you know what Zealot came to mean? Do you know the word sicario? This also originated with Jewish anti-Roman fanatics.

I don't know these fanatics, where are they and the religions they whipped up today?

Quote: FrGamble

Some of the most amazing scientific discoveries were made during times when there were no computers or the amazing instruments we have today.

Not in the time of Jesus. People were 97%
illiterate, they had no education at all.
Only the rich and upper class could read.
Jesus was the illiterate son of a lowly
carpenter, he learned scripture verbally,
like everybody else. His disciples?

-The apostles were described as "uneducated and ignorant men" in Acts 4:13.

"The most thorough examination of literacy in Palestine is by a professor of Jewish studies at the University of London, Catherine Hezser, who shows that in the days of Jesus probably only 3 percent of Jews in Palestine were literate."

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Science and religion work together.

Science and religion are oil and water, always
will be. Science never says, hey, lets consult
the Bible and the Koran before we proceed.
And when has religion ever given a rip about
what science concludes.

Quote: Evenbob

Science and religion are oil and water, always
will be. Science never says, hey, lets consult
the Bible and the Koran before we proceed.
And when has religion ever given a rip about
what science concludes.

Any true religion should care very much about what science concludes because a true religious knowledge and true scientific knowledge can never contradict each other.

By the way the times science gets itself in so much trouble and causes so many problems and catastrophic problems is when they don't ask whether or not they should do something and consult the ethics or morality of what it experiments with.

Quote: FrGamble

true religious knowledge and true scientific knowledge can never contradict each other.
.

You mean like virgin births and miracles
and resurrections of dead bodies, like
all the Jewish saints coming alive and
roaming the streets? Or Jesus ascending
bodily into heaven? You don't see division of
science and religion there, where science
says none of that is physically possible?