Pittsburgh Airport

Quote: Nareed

From what I've read, both RyanAir and Spirit will use the smaller, cheaper airport every time.

Large Florida Airports
MIA Miami International
MCO Orlando International
FLL Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood International
TPA Tampa International

Medium Florida Airports
RSW Southwest Florida International
PBI Palm Beach International
JAX Jacksonville International



I should clarify what I mean by building an alternative airport. RyanAir, Spirit , and Allegiant use existing airports as cheaper alternatives to primary airports.

For instance in Florida you:

Use West Palm Beach instead of Fort Lauderdale or Miamia
MIA Miami Miami International 20,986,341
FLL Fort Lauderdale Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood International 13,061,607
PBI West Palm Beach Palm Beach International 3,113,485

Use Sanford instead of Orlando International
MCO Orlando Orlando International 18,759,938
SFB Sanford Orlando Sanford International 1,174,158

Use Clearwater or Sarasota instead of Tampa
TPA Tampa Tampa International 9,150,414
PIE Clearwater St Pete-Clearwater International 819,962
SRQ Sarasota Sarasota/Bradenton International 607,428

Use Punta Gorda instead of Regional Southwest
RSW Fort Myers Southwest Florida International 4,159,212
PGD Punta Gorda Punta Gorda 421,157

Using an older airport that was primarily military or general aviation is an effective strategy for low cost airlines. It works reasonably well, but as you see in Mexico, the LCC will often abandon the more remote airport if space becomes available.

What has never worked is building a "supplemental airport" from scratch unless you are prepared to underwrite the expense with the national government like Washington Dulles or Tokyo's Narita. In Canada building Mirabel to supplement Dorval in Montreal just collapsed the air industry there, and pushed it to Toronto faster. Mexico City is going to close the old airport, not try and supplement it.


An idea that you hear repeatedly (Denver, Hong Kong, Austin) is to keep the old airport open for regional jets. After all the old airport is always closer to downtown, and has some infrastructure like hotels nearby. So far it has never been permitted.

But, the failures in the past don't mean that someone won't try it again. Las Vegas Ivanpah is probably the best upcoming example.

Quote: Pacomartin

Use Clearwater or Sarasota instead of Tampa
TPA Tampa Tampa International 9,150,414
PIE Clearwater St Pete-Clearwater International 819,962
SRQ Sarasota Sarasota/Bradenton International 607,428

Use Punta Gorda instead of Regional Southwest
RSW Fort Myers Southwest Florida International 4,159,212
PGD Punta Gorda Punta Gorda 421,157

Wow, I had no idea Clearwater/St. Pete had commercial air service. I fly into Fort Myers quite a bit but have not yet had the opportunity to check out Punta Gorda airport. Sadly, Allegiant doesn't fly that far east from Vegas..

Quote: Pacomartin

I should clarify what I mean by building an alternative airport. RyanAir, Spirit , and Allegiant use existing airports as cheaper alternatives to primary airports.

I understand that. I mean that when a new reliever airport fails and almost gets abandoned, the LCCs and ULCCs can move in and spare it from utter disaster.

Quote:

An idea that you hear repeatedly (Denver, Hong Kong, Austin) is to keep the old airport open for regional jets.

That's actually a great idea, if your objective is that the city will never, ever be a hub, even a minor one, for any airline. Changing planes is one thing. Changing airports is a huge hassle.

It might become a regional jet hub, but that would require an increase in the number, and ranges, of tiny jets all over the country, or as far as they can go.

How much do you figure the land where McCarran sits is worth? A new airport might not be a horrible idea, but only if they close the current one. It's too big to keep it open for GA, even considering the number of helicopter tours. No question, I assume, of extending public transportation all the way there, but airport to city is not a bad route for light rail.

Quote: DRich

Wow, I had no idea Clearwater/St. Pete had commercial air service. I fly into Fort Myers quite a bit but have not yet had the opportunity to check out Punta Gorda airport. Sadly, Allegiant doesn't fly that far east from Vegas..

Allegiant Air is the primary user of the Clearwater/St. Pete airport (PIE) with over 95% of the passengers. Sun Country Airlines brings some charter flights from Gulfport/Biloxi and Sunwing Airlines bring seasonal flights from three airports in Canada: Halifax, Ottawa, Toronto-Pearson

Allegiant flies to PIE from Akron/Canton, Allentown, Appleton, Asheville, Bangor, Belleville/St. Louis, Bloomington/Normal, Cedar Rapids, Chattanooga, Chicago/Rockford, Cincinnati, Columbus–Rickenbacker, Concord (NC), Dayton, Des Moines, Elmira, Flint, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Greensboro, Greenville/Spartanburg, Harrisburg, Huntington (WV), Indianapolis, Kansas City, Knoxville, Lexington, Memphis, New Orleans, Newburgh, Niagara Falls, Omaha, Peoria, Pittsburgh, Plattsburgh, Raleigh/Durham, Roanoke, Sioux Falls, South Bend, Springfield/Branson, Syracuse, Toledo, Trenton (begins November 4, 2016), Tri-Cities (TN), Wilkes–Barre/Scranton, Youngstown/Warren Seasonal: Fargo, Hagerstown (MD), Moline/Quad Cities, Richmond, Tulsa

But Allegiant does not really fly from East to West CONUS. They intend to completely phase out their fleet of older McDonnell Douglas MD-83 (66 miles per passenger seat per gallon) and replace them with Airbus A320 (88 miles per passenger seat per gallon). Perhaps when they do that they will fly cross country to vacation destinations on the other side of CONUS.

Similarly Punta Gorda is former general aviation airport which almost entirely serviced by Allegiant Airlines. They are being joined by Frontier Airlines this fall.
Allegiant Air flies to PGD from Akron/Canton, Allentown, Asheville, Belleville/St. Louis, Cedar Rapids, Chicago/Rockford, Cincinnati, Columbus-Rickenbacker, Des Moines, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Greenville/Spartanburg, Harrisburg, Huntington (WV), Indianapolis, Kansas City, Knoxville, Lexington, Moline/Quad Cities, Niagara Falls, Peoria, Pittsburgh, Plattsburgh, Portsmouth (NH), Raleigh/Durham, South Bend, Springfield (IL), Springfield/Branson, Toledo, Youngstown/Warren
Concord (NC) (begins October 5, 2016), Trenton (begins November 3, 2016), Seasonal: Chicago–O'Hare, Philadelphia (both begin October 30, 2016)

Sanford Airport near Orlando is only serviced by Allegiant Air and Interjet from Mexico City as regularly scheduled airlines. They do have Charters from several countries in Europe.

Unless its a really cheap and above all, FAST trip to then Ivanhoe (whatever) airport it will be a bond holder's nightmare. If the Strip traffic creeps along eventually getting to Ivanhoe its just useless.

What if McCarren goes shopping center or mega casino or something?

Dissapointed hookers commuting from out of state to Vegas? Or Disappointed gamblers? Visitor profiles have changed. Too many clubs and restaurants in Vegas. Right now I can't see massive casinos being built but smaller casinos are constrained by surveillance and data capacity, so its often cheaper to build anew than rennovate.

Quote: Fleastiff

What if McCarren goes shopping center or mega casino or something?

See if they close McCarren, then there is no business conflict. All airlines have to move to Ivanpah, and they all accrue the same advantages of extra runways, and new terminal buildings, but all passengers also have the same disadvantages of the longer commute to the casino area.

When Stapeleton airport in Denver close in Feb 1995 there was considerable pressure to keep some of the shorter runways open, and develop a regional airport. But the regional airport would have a distinct advantage over the much more remote Denver International. So Stapleton was completely closed and all airport facilities were removed and the land was redeveloped.

Quote: Nareed

How much do you figure the land where McCarran sits is worth? A new airport might not be a horrible idea, but only if they close the current one. It's too big to keep it open for GA, even considering the number of helicopter tours. No question, I assume, of extending public transportation all the way there, but airport to city is not a bad route for light rail.

The issue in Las Vegas is they don't want to close McCarren, or even convert it to a regional airport. They want it operating at close to 50 MAP and move the excess to Ivanpah. That is the hard part to do from the viewpoint of the airlines business analysis.

The two airports would be 34 miles apart. So even normal light rail which tends to operate at about 55 mph would seem slow. If you close McCarran you would have to build high speed rail before you open the airport. If you keep McCarran open, you may never have enough passengers to build even a light rail, and you would have to rely on buses.

Clark County has an estimated population of 2,114,801 which is obviously pretty small for an airport of that size. It may make better economic sense to run a campaign and entice people to spend an extra day on their visit to Las Vegas instead of increasing air capacity to handle arbitrarily large number of potential visitors.

Would be simpler to have the casinos formally comp the airlines/airport to some sweeteners.

First and foremost the Ivanpah Valley Airport and it's relationship to the 186 mi Xpresswest Rail needs to be established. Obviously the this train will more or less duplicate the last 35 miles where a train from Ivanpah to Las Vegas Strip. Are the two trains going to race side by side, or tiered above and below, or is there going to be a stop at the airport. If there is a stop, what percentage of the trains will go there?

Let's not forget that SB county in California has about the same population as Clark County in NV. There is a potential for people to board the train in Victorville to go to Ivanpah to fly.
2,114,801 Clark County, NV
2,128,133 San Bernardino County, CA

Basically, I don't think there is any way to build Ivanpah without closing McCarran. If you close McCarran you have to build a HSR, and all the airlines will have to live with it. Bottom line is they won't give up on the city en masse.

Quote: Pacomartin

The issue in Las Vegas is they don't want to close McCarren, or even convert it to a regional airport. They want it operating at close to 50 MAP and move the excess to Ivanpah. That is the hard part to do from the viewpoint of the airlines business analysis.

Why don't they take the money budgeted for the new airport and set it on fire? It will be much cheaper and it will save a lot of time and effort.

Quote:

Clark County has an estimated population of 2,114,801 which is obviously pretty small for an airport of that size. It may make better economic sense to run a campaign and entice people to spend an extra day on their visit to Las Vegas instead of increasing air capacity to handle arbitrarily large number of potential visitors.

How about using the airport money to subsidize one night's stay for every visitor?

Now, the reason that won't work is that the people planning a weekend two night stay (say Fri and Sat), would then just pay for one night and get the second one free.

But some of them might use the money they'd have spent on the second night to gamble more, buy something, pay for a nicer dinner, or see a show. So it would still be better than spending it on a boondoggle airport.

Perhaps this is an example of the effects of My Las Vegas and other Loyalty programs.

Casinos are trying to improve their customer base. Play lots of slots at home and get a room for free. Trying to get Gamblers rather than Tourists to come to Vegas.

Do airports make money from landing fees, slot guarantees, per passenger, what?? How do airports actually make money to retire the bonds? Or is it just general tax revenues that are used?

In Vegas the teachers want guaranteed shares of revenue and a state lottery; the casinos don't want to do either.

Casinos can adapt to short term trends; airports are locked into tax/revenue-sharing/transport schemes.

Its not just passengers that transported from the airport to the casinos, what all those shrimp, bottles of booze and sushi? An extra thirty minutes won't make much difference at Terribles sushi bar but it might at the Venetian's sushi bar.