POTUS election (non emotional issues)

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September 18th, 2016 at 1:38:31 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
If possible, I would like to start a thread, not about character or lack thereof, or charm, or sickness in candidates. We have a good thread to post those comments. Just some cut and dried factual issues.

Quote: Pay for the Wall
Visa fees: Even a small increase in visa fees would pay for the wall. This includes fees on border crossing cards, of which more than 1 million are issued a year. The border-crossing card is also one of the greatest sources of illegal immigration into the United States, via overstays. Mexico is also the single largest recipient of U.S. green cards, which confer a path to U.S. citizenship. Again, we have the leverage so Mexico will back down.


The Border Crossing Card program is roughly a $160 million a year program which processes 1 million middle class Mexicans so they can come to the Border Zone of the USA. Keep in mind that Mexico does not charge Americans anything to come to the border zone unless they stay over 7 days. Then they pay 332 pesos for up to 180 days, but then they can travel anywhere in the country. So over a ten year period that is 332*20=6,640 pesos ~ $339.

Is the statement The border-crossing card is also one of the greatest sources of illegal immigration into the United States, via overstays factual? I don't know, but it probably is accurate. Over half the land crossings of the southern border are via BCC so it is probable that they result in more than half the overstays. But an "overstay" is a black/white term. It could be for a day or for a year.

The Border Zone was negotiated in 1952 for the economic benefit of both countries. I think probably USA benefits more than Mexico as well heeled Mexicans do some serious shopping in the Border Zone in the USA, while Americans not interested in illegal activity are looking for margaritas, dental work, automobile work, and some inexpensive plastic surgery. I seriously question the statement: Even a small increase in visa fees would pay for the wall. I don't see how a $160 million program can have it's fees increased to pay for a $12 billion wall.
September 18th, 2016 at 4:52:05 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
What if there was also a toll for Americans returning? Or each vehicle crossing? $5 or $10 fee not out of the question.
The President is a fink.
September 18th, 2016 at 5:22:56 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
I don't see how a $160 million program can have it's fees increased to pay for a $12 billion wall.


Now you see why Trump goes bankrupt so often.

I mean, aside from it being his tool to screw people over.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
September 18th, 2016 at 6:33:11 AM permalink
RonC
Member since: Nov 7, 2012
Threads: 8
Posts: 2452
Quote: Pacomartin
If possible, I would like to start a thread, not about character or lack thereof, or charm, or sickness in candidates. We have a good thread to post those comments. Just some cut and dried factual issues.


Quote: Nareed
Now you see why Trump goes bankrupt so often.

I mean, aside from it being his tool to screw people over.


Thanks for starting a good conversation, pacomartin, I appreciate a lot of your stuff even though I don't always comment on the various threads.

Sorry it only took three posts for it to get derailed from your intent. Hopefully, the rest of the thread will go better and there will be some interesting things to read.

I wish that we could get the illegals to stop coming in without having to talk about things like walls; I think we could do to discourage them if both Democrats and Republicans didn't have large groups of people who want to allow them in for various reasons. To actually build a wall costing billions, funding is going to have to come from a a variety of sources. It is impractical, of course, but a lot of the ideas floated around in campaigns are impractical...we'll see what actually gets done.
September 18th, 2016 at 9:07:53 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: RonC


I wish that we could get the illegals to stop coming in without having to talk about things like walls; I think we could do to discourage them if both Democrats and Republicans didn't have large groups of people who want to allow them in for various reasons. To actually build a wall costing billions, funding is going to have to come from a a variety of sources. It is impractical, of course, but a lot of the ideas floated around in campaigns are impractical...we'll see what actually gets done.


The big issue is how easy it is to stay, not how hard to get it. Of course you put a wall up in higher density areas to control things. But how many other countries would there be lawsuits to force government to provide services and welfare to people in said country illegally. Heck, BAC once was going to issue accounts to people with no social security numbers and here illegally! Yes, after 9/11 and the PATRIOT act to force banks to know their customers and prevent illicit money transfers.

The feds are masters of making life intolerable for people, entities, and countries they do not like. If they really wanted to, well you would want to buy stock in Greyhound for all the tickets to Juarez that would start being sold one-way.
The President is a fink.
September 18th, 2016 at 11:01:19 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Nareed
Now you see why Trump goes bankrupt so often.
.


Trump has never gone bankrupt, several of
his businesses have. Happens all the time,
that's why the laws are there. I know a guy
who had businesses that went belly up 3
times and he's still going strong because of
the bankruptcy laws.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
September 18th, 2016 at 11:59:47 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: AZDuffman
What if there was also a toll for Americans returning? Or each vehicle crossing? $5 or $10 fee not out of the question.


There was 74 million crossings in 2015 by personal vehicles. I think that is for nationals of both countries, and a round trip would be two crossings. But I imagine a giant percentage of those crossings is by people who average at least one crossing per week.

So you could say $10 per vehicle and $5 for each of the 41 million pedestrian crossings is roughly a billion dollars, but all you would do is to vastly reduce the number of tourist crossings. Lots of people used to go to a convention in San Diego, drive to the border and pay $10 to park, walk across and buy some prescription drugs, smoke Cuban cigars, drink Margaritas for a few hours. Such visits were greatly reduced after 9-11 meant the border was frequently tied up. After 9-11 a high school kid could shut down the border with a bomb scare.

Percentage of crossings for each state
45.6% TX
39.9% CA
13.1% AZ
1.3% NM
100% Total (181 million land crossings southern border)
In comparison roughly 55 million land crossings Canadian border

The estimate that DJT throws around is $12 billion to build the wall. Possibly the largest public works project in US history was the Big Dig, Boston, Massachusetts.
From 1992-2006 $14.6 billion was spent which is $19.8 billion in 2015 dollars.

If you try and extract that kind of money from the fees for the relatively impoverished border zone, all you would do is destroy the local economy.
September 18th, 2016 at 1:46:06 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Seems odd for the small government brigade to be suggesting increasing taxes and lower the effectiveness of the free market, anyways.

The issue, which Trump does bring up in his own way, is the problem of immigration into the US... people want a source of cheap labour, and free trade. But the controls are not in place, so you can have someone illegally in the country, but still able to get a job and government services. That just don't make sense. Whereas many wanting to enter legally have masses of barriers put in the way to get in.

It's a mess, and the wall isn't a solution... and nor is the half-baked plans on the left, who have to appease many of the recently immigrated, it seems.
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
September 18th, 2016 at 3:34:00 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: TheCesspit


It's a mess, and the wall isn't a solution... and nor is the half-baked plans on the left, who have to appease many of the recently immigrated, it seems.


When a wall was added near San Diego it cut way down on crossings. The problem with calling it a "wall" it it makes it seem like you will build a small fence and leave. A wall is just part of larger security of a national border.
The President is a fink.
September 18th, 2016 at 5:48:14 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: AZDuffman
When a wall was added near San Diego it cut way down on crossings. The problem with calling it a "wall" it it makes it seem like you will build a small fence and leave. A wall is just part of larger security of a national border.


I guess "I'm going to work out how to deal with immigration with a fair, simple policy based on skills needed, and this will cost us more money, but be good overall for the economy" doesn't sound as good, or dog whistle as well....
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
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