Southwest Airlines annual report

I know that Westjet flies an older model 737 from Newfoundland to Dublin (over 2000 miles). I wouldn't be surprised if they are already using A320 from Iceland to BWI
KEF BWI 2,762 mi
YYT DUB 2,049 mi



In October 2014 Airbus mapped out the present B757 routes as potential market to A321 Long Range. The A321LR can replace the 757-200W, but not B757-300 (only 55 delivered of the -300 version).


As I understand it, the B737 wing design is so old that they simply can't get the jet engines with the larger fan diameter. Redesigning the wing will cost almost as much as a clean slate design. The A320 family can fit the larger fan diameter engines, so they could create a Long Range version by simply adding more fuel tanks.

IAE V2500 with fan diameter 62.5" (159 cm)) Airbus 320 family
CFM International LEAP-1B with fan diameter 69.4" (176 cm)) Boeing 737 Max family
CFM International LEAP-1A with fan diameter 78" (198 cm) Airbus neo320 family
Pratt & Whitney PW1100G with fan diameter 81" (206 cm), Airbus neo320 family

The smaller Boeing 737 Max 7 will go further as it is a much lighter plane, but there are only 60 orders and I doubt they will ever make it. The competition from Bombardier and Embraer is very strong for shorter ranges in this size plane, and a long range plane with limited seating capacity is not very desirable.

Quote: Pacomartin

As I understand it, the B737 wing design is so old that they simply can't get the jet engines with the larger fan diameter. Redesigning the wing will cost almost as much as a clean slate design.

There's also the matter of the short landing gear, which gets you a wing too close to the ground. Up close you can see the nacelles on the 737 are flattened at the bottom. And this, too, requires a new design.

And that's why I'm so surprised Boeing hasn't come up with one in almost 40 years now. It's like they start playing with the idea, they come up with new features like double aisles, unducted fan engines, etc., and then say "Screw it! Just update the 737 and let's build a clean-slate widebody. How about one with batteries that catch on fire?"

The 737 design dates from the 60s, I think. The A320 from the 80s. The last narrow body designed from scratch by Boeing is now in its twilight years. I wonder how much benefit can older designs realize from newer technologies?

Quote: Nareed

The 737 design dates from the 60s, I think. The A320 from the 80s. The last narrow body designed from scratch by Boeing is now in its twilight years. I wonder how much benefit can older designs realize from newer technologies?

July 15, 1966: Boeing celebrates its 50th anniversary.
April 9, 1967: Boeing 737-100 maiden flight. The larger 737-200 flies in August.

Boeing had no intentions of building another B737 modification, but on 1 December 2010, Airbus officially launched the A320neo "New Engine Option". Orders for the neo A320 family skyrocketed and have reached almost 5000 today. At one point Southwest threatened to convert it's entire fleet over to the neo A320. Boeing felt it had no choice but to delay the clean sheet design project and build another modification.

Quote: Pacomartin

In October 2014 Airbus mapped out the present B757 routes as potential market to A321 Long Range. The A321LR can replace the 757-200W, but not B757-300 (only 55 delivered of the -300 version).

I know the 757 didn't have stellar sales, but of all the Boeing civilian products out of production, it is the one which will be missed the most.

Quote: Pacomartin

Boeing had no intentions of building another B737 modification, but on 1 December 2010, Airbus officially launched the A320neo "New Engine Option". Orders for the neo A320 family skyrocketed and have reached almost 5000 today.

Boeing should have been further along with a new design by then. the A320 debuted in the 80s, and it was a matter of time before an upgrade came along. the 737 base design as outdated by the 90s, IMO.

The higher ear in the A320/1 means it will stay in business for a very long time yet, unless some revolutionary new design comes along (maybe the return of the unducted fan? don't bet on it).

Quote: Nareed

Boeing should have been further along with a new design by then. the A320 debuted in the 80s, and it was a matter of time before an upgrade came along. the 737 base design as outdated by the 90s, IMO.

The higher ear in the A320/1 means it will stay in business for a very long time yet, unless some revolutionary new design comes along (maybe the return of the unducted fan? don't bet on it).

The 737 next generation was prompted by the development of the Airbus A320. The launch customer Southwest Airlines order placed in November 1993. The first NG first flew on February 9, 1997.

As of July 2016, 363 examples of the B777-200ER and 73 B777-200 were in airline service. The Boeing 787-9 is positioned as a successor with 142 deliveries)
A total of 765 aircraft (all 767 variants) were in airline service in July 2015. The Boeing 787-8 is positioned as a successor with 313 deliveries ).
Boeing completed detailed design for the B787-10 on December 2, 2015, and is to begin major assembly in 2016, followed by first flight in 2017 and first delivery in 2018.

The Dreamliner is considered a clean slate design, but the clean slate replacement for the 737 has been delayed until 2030.

At some point a clean slate replacement for the larger or longer range B777s (notably the popular B777-300ER) has not had a date announced. Boeing is understandably working very closely with Emirates Airlines.

Quote: Pacomartin

The 737 next generation was prompted by the development of the Airbus A320.

Call it the first mistake?

Quote:

The launch customer Southwest Airlines order placed in November 1993. The first NG first flew on February 9, 1997.

So in the next thirteen years Boeing couldn't develop a clean slate successor.

Ok. There was the 777 and the development of the 787. But surely America's last major commercial plane manufacturer should be able to handle two new designs at once.

Although to be fair, perhaps they grew complacent seeing how long Airbus took to come up with a major upgrade...

Quote: Nareed

Ok. There was the 777 and the development of the 787. But surely America's last major commercial plane manufacturer should be able to handle two new designs at once.

I find it difficult to believe the Dreamliner cost $32 billion to develop

The business case for the A380 was predicated on development costs of roughly $15 billion, with Entry Into Service in 2005, and sales of 750 aircraft over a 20-year period. The aircraft was designed to break even on cash flow at 250 deliveries, with targeted production rates of 45 aircraft per year. Development rose to $25 billion and obviously the Entry into Service missed by 2 years and production never came close to 45 aircraft per year.

What will a supersonic aircraft cost to develop?

Quote: Pacomartin

I find it difficult to believe the Dreamliner cost $32 billion to develop

"Everything costs more and takes longer."

Quote:

What will a supersonic aircraft cost to develop?

How much you got? ;)

Precedent says "a boatload of money." Concorde required two countries to fund its development. Boeing required an infusion of tax money as well, and never even finished. It's hard to believe the Soviets managed to put an SST in the air, even if it was ridiculously expensive to fly and never amounted to anything.

I'd like to thing advances in engine technology, airframe technology, design, etc. would make it cheaper by now, but I'm sure that's not the case. But we can see how Boom does with its much ballyhooed attempt.

Quote: Nareed

I know the 757 didn't have stellar sales, but of all the Boeing civilian products out of production, it is the one which will be missed the most.

It is the Boeing Model that was most delivered to Domestic Airlines

% Domestic Sales
43% Total 737
20% Total 747
70% Total 757
45% Total 767
25% Total 777
21% Total 787

A 4000 nmi radius from JFK includes most of Europe, although Stockholm Arlanda (3921 mi) is the current longest commercial route with a 757
I have also shown the new Stewart to Bergen route which set a long range record for B737-800.


Airbus hopes to sell 1000 long range variant of neoA321s with still air range of 4000 nmi.