Textual analysis of Old Testament

Quote: Nareed

I thought Lucifer was a Latin name, meaning "light-bringer." "Lux" is Latin for "light." That's very elementary etymology (picked up in physics class, of all places). I suppose, though, the Aramaic original uses a different name.

You are correct. Although Aramaic was the dialect of the day, the books of the New Testament only used a handful of Aramaic names.

As Isiaiah was written in Hebrew it would have been translated into Greek and then into Latin and finally into English. The same word is used in Revelation in reference to Jesus. In this case it is not translated as "lucifer" but as "morning star".

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 22:16

Hebrew Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv.12
Greek Phosphoros, which translates -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [KJV]

I am saying that tradition connects all the snake, Satan, Lucifer and the devil. The actual text does not specifically identify them as the same entity.

Quote: Nareed

Twice? Really?

The Hebrew word is "mashiach" which actually appears many times in the old testament. It is usually translated as "anointed". But in two instances it is used as the phrase "Messianic prince" where it is translated as "The Messiah".

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, it is the development of doctrine and a growing understanding of God's Revelation and Salvific actions throughout history. I like how you clarify the difficulty some fundamentalists might have with this understanding by calling it, "somewhat abhorrent". Most thinking people realize that the Bible records the pedagogy of God the great teacher leading us from chaos to Christ.

I imagine people who are very familiar with the bible realize that stories are retold in different versions.

Quote: Pacomartin

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Revelation 22:16

Does this mean Jesús is El Diablo? :)

Cool!

Quote:

I am saying that tradition connects all the snake, Satan, Lucifer and the devil. The actual text does not specifically identify them as the same entity.

I'm pretty sure the snake in the Eden myth is meant to represent a snake. Few cultures view them with anything other than horror and revulsion. Early civilizations probably had many problems with snakes. Agriculture leads to grain stores, which attract mice, which attract snakes (and cats). So it makes sense for such an animal to be the villain.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, it is the development of doctrine and a growing understanding of God's Revelation and Salvific actions throughout history. I like how you clarify the difficulty some fundamentalists might have with this understanding by calling it, "somewhat abhorrent". Most thinking people realize that the Bible records the pedagogy of God the great teacher leading us from chaos to Christ.

You know, SF fandom has produced a wide array of tools to explore fiction. IMO, this is vastly underappreciated.

Let me introduce you to one such: retcon.

That's short for "Retroactive Continuity." When a story, or a character arc, takes a turn that contradicts earlier developments, you add some more verbiage to make the earlier events compliant with the new turn, or to explain away the earlier events.

Some genres pay more attention to this than others, and none are perfect at making things fit (some things need industrial-strength Handwavium in order to fit).

But as we can see, it's been going on for as long as there's been literature.

Quote: Nareed

Does this mean Jesús is El Diablo? :)

It means Jesús is also called a light bringer. Keep in mind that the text where Lucifer is used is about a mortal king, but since it says he was cast down from heaven, tradition associated Lucifer with the proper name of Satan. Satan is more or less a title since "The Accuser" might be the title of the prosecuting lawyer in a courtroom.

Quote: Nareed

I'm pretty sure the snake in the Eden myth is meant to represent a snake. Few cultures view them with anything other than horror and revulsion. Early civilizations probably had many problems with snakes. Agriculture leads to grain stores, which attract mice, which attract snakes (and cats). So it makes sense for such an animal to be the villain.

Since I know nothing about Hebrew, I have to rely on the biblical scholars who made the translation into English. For 31 occurrences the following occurrences of the Hebrew with 10 variations was translated into serpent or serpents.

31 Occurrences
han·nā·ḥāš — 9 Occurrences
han·nə·ḥā·šîm — 1 Occ.
kan·nā·ḥāš — 2 Occ.
kə·nā·ḥāš — 1 Occ.
lə·nā·ḥāš — 2 Occ.
nā·ḥāš — 10 Occ.
nə·ḥaš — 3 Occ.
nə·ḥā·šîm — 1 Occ.
wə·han·nā·ḥāš — 1 Occ.
wə·nā·ḥāš — 1 Occ.


The following words were translated in "brass or bronze". They may have associated the color of snakes with the color brass
nə·ḥā·šā — 5 Occ.
ū·nə·ḥāš — 2 Occ.

All kinds of animals served as symbols. Regardless of the perception of an animal by people, it might have desirable characteristics.

For instance, the Egyptian king's headdress usually has a cobra on it, facing forward. It's a magical protector who will bite and poison the pharaoh's enemies. In Aztec tradition snakes make an appearance or two. I forget where the plumed snake comes in.

Making a bronze snake to heal a snake bite is classic magical thinking.

Snakes are perhaps the most widespread reptile in the world. You find them just about anywhere, except cold climates where reptiles in general are scarce.

What I recall about the snake in the Eden myth, though, is that it had legs.

Quote: Nareed

What I recall about the snake in the Eden myth, though, is that it had legs.

The serpent is cursed by God for his part in the eating of the fruit to crawl on his belly. I guess the assumption is that he used to have legs. It wouldn't exactly be a curse if you always crawled on your belly.

Quote: Deuteronomy

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Quote: Pacomartin

The serpent is cursed by God for his part in the eating of the fruit to crawl on his belly. I guess the assumption is that he used to have legs.

I recall the Hebrew teacher saying so.

I wonder why the all-powerful god let the sea snake off the hook.

Also, if the snake was really Lucifer (aka Jesus or whoever), is it really fair to punish all the countless generations of future snakes?

Quote: Nareed

Also, if the snake was really Lucifer (aka Jesus or whoever), is it really fair to punish all the countless generations of future snakes?

Like I said, it is tradition that finds a correspondence between the serpent and Satan. It isn't in the text .

As I am not Jewish, nor do I speak Hebrew, I can only guess how the rabbis interpret the OT. I know that the Hebrew word is sometimes interpreted as "adversary" and sometimes as the name or title of the "superhuman adversary of God".

haś·śā·ṭān — 16 Occ.
lə·śā·ṭān — 4 Occ.
śā·ṭān — 5 Occ.

You can see the interpretations from the King James Version

Numbers 22:22 KJV: in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding
Numbers 22:32 KJV: behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way
1 Samuel 29:4 KJV: lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile
2 Samuel 19:22 KJV: that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man
1 Kings 5:4 KJV: on every side, [so that there is] neither adversary nor evil
1 Kings 11:14 KJV: stirred up an adversary unto Solomon,
1 Kings 11:23 KJV: stirred him up [another] adversary, Rezon
1 Kings 11:25 KJV: And he was an adversary to Israel
=====
Job 1:6 KJV: themselves before the LORD, and Satan came
Job 1:7 KJV: said unto Satan, Whence
Job 1:7 KJV: comest thou? Then Satan answered
Job 1:8 KJV: said unto Satan, Hast thou considered
Job 1:9 KJV: Then Satan answered the LORD,
Job 1:12 KJV: said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power;
Job 1:12 KJV: thine hand. So Satan went forth
Job 2:1 KJV: themselves before the LORD, and Satan came
Job 2:2 KJV: said unto Satan, From whence
Job 2:2 KJV: comest thou? And Satan answered
Job 2:3 KJV: said unto Satan, Hast thou
Job 2:4 KJV: And Satan answered the LORD,
Job 2:6 KJV: said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand;
Job 2:7 KJV: So went Satan forth from the presence
1 Chronicles 21:1 KJV: And Satan stood up against Israel,
Psalm 109:6 KJV: thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand
Zechariah 3:1 KJV: of the LORD, and Satan standing
Zechariah 3:2 KJV: And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan;

Even though there are 42 chapter in Job, the name of Satan is only used in the first two chapters. And outside of Job, it is barely used in the Old Testament. And from the Original Post , 1 Chronicles 21:1 is a retelling of an older story where THE LORD is the protoganist, and in the retelling SATAN is the protagonist.

Quote: Pacomartin

As I am not Jewish, nor do I speak Hebrew, I can only guess how the rabbis interpret the OT.

Sorry. No clue. As I've said, I've never heard a single Jew mention Satan, or the Devil, in any way even remotely connected to religion.

This makes sense, as ancient religions had no central "evil" figure, until, I suppose, Zoroastrianism and Ahriman. The closest would be Seth in Egyptian religion, but even he had a cult and a few pharaohs took names in his honor (like Seti I and Seti II). Had Seth been seen as pure evil, any cult of his would have been on the fringe and not socially respectable.

There were assorted demons, evil spirits, ghosts, undead, etc. But no figure comparable to the Devil.

Quote: Nareed

Sorry. No clue. As I've said, I've never heard a single Jew mention Satan, or the Devil, in any way even remotely connected to religion.

Writers of the early Hebrew Scriptures looked upon Jehovah as performing both good and evil deeds.
Isaiah 45:6-7:"...I am the LORD and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace an create evil. I the LORD do all these things." (KJV)
Satan is described as one of the members of the court of heaven or as a member of God's council.

During the last three centuries before Christ's birth, the portrayal of Satan underwent a major change. The Zoroastrian / Persian dualism concept appeared in Jewish writing: God was now looked upon as wholly good; Satan as profoundly evil. History was seen as a battle between them. No longer was Satan simply God's prosecuting attorney, helper, or lackey. Satan, and his demons, were now humanity's greatest enemies.

It is common to refer to the "Old Testament God" especially for troublesome passages that seem unrealistically violent given the nature of the offense. People posted about Elisha and the Two Bears (2 Kings 2:23-25) before.

23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.