Calexit

Poll
5 votes (62.5%)
1 vote (12.5%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (12.5%)
1 vote (12.5%)

8 members have voted

December 5th, 2016 at 7:02:36 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 324
Posts: 11134
Quote: Ayecarumba
I disagree. California's residents rely on huge federal aid subsidies for roads, schools, the power grid, the water supply, the welfare system, medical insurance, home loans, and social security. The state would not be able to sustain these institutions alone.


California receives less than $1 in Federal money for every dollar its citizens pay to Washington in taxes. So no.

If you want to argue about income CA receives in fees and such from military bases, military personnel, federal facilities (like JPL), etc. That's different.

IF California seceded, then it would face a major multi-year recession for a good long time. Afterwards, things ought to get better.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
December 5th, 2016 at 7:17:34 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 38
Posts: 3132
Quote: AZDuffman
Myself I do not think thd USA has 50 years left in current form. I don't know that it has yet but this generation it looks like CA will feel more loyalty towards Mexico than thd USA. This happens in regions. New cultures overwhelm. Alliances shift. The cultural split is already here in many ways. One day it will be too much.


Typical white conservative thinking
As America becomes less white, the USA as AZ knows it is all over
lol
I love a multi-cultural USA
Its what makes America great
Just walk around the greatest city on the planet, NYC
You hear all the languages
Its wonderful
Variety is the spice of life and a multi cultural society has the best restaurants
Hmm
I think I'll have some tacos today :-)
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
December 5th, 2016 at 10:13:23 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 324
Posts: 11134
Quote: terapined
Typical white conservative thinking
As America becomes less white, the USA as AZ knows it is all over


Some people would rather live in a hell of their own making than in someone else's heaven. Some people, claim loudly not be racists, while claiming as loudly that only white Europeans, or people descended from white Europeans, can sustain Western civilization.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
December 5th, 2016 at 12:52:10 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 102
Posts: 6655
Quote: Wizard
Ironic, because it used to be part of Mexico.


Not "ironic" but more just the way some parts of the world work. Look at Alsace and Loraine. Are they French or German. Not just by who won the last war, but culturally? Where does Kashmir belong? Quebec may one day leave Canada if the rewards for leaving outweigh the rewards for staying.

Since WWII the USA has locked in a world system that makes leaving much harder than it was pre-1900. But that does not change the preferences of people to form a nation that makes sense culturally. Sometimes even the system is not enough to keep things from breaking apart, for an example there look at Yugoslavia. People were forced together by, well brutal force. Brutal force was used to rip it apart.

So back to CA. It was part of Mexico, but there was only nominal Mexican control. There was only nominal Spanish control before that. Too remote to control or attack, the border lasted until the Bear Flag Republic, one of the shortest lived nations ever. Then the USA got and was able to keep control. 160 or so years is a long time for such a "borderland" to be under control of one nation, long in a western perspective anyhow. In wold history it is a blip. So a flip back might be natural.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
December 5th, 2016 at 12:55:51 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 102
Posts: 6655
Quote: terapined
Typical white conservative thinking
As America becomes less white, the USA as AZ knows it is all over
lol
I love a multi-cultural USA
Its what makes America great
Just walk around the greatest city on the planet, NYC
You hear all the languages
Its wonderful
Variety is the spice of life and a multi cultural society has the best restaurants
Hmm
I think I'll have some tacos today :-)


It is logical thinking. I am sure you are the kind of person who thinks the USA is immune to natural forces as you wave some huge "#1" foam finger. Those who look at things in a more intellectual way, however, look around and can see the signs. CA is out of the mainstream socially with the rest of the USA. These kind of divides tend to grow, not lessen, over time.

You can keep NYC, LA, and SF. Been to all three. Cannot understand why anyone would live that way by choice.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
December 5th, 2016 at 6:56:43 PM permalink
Ayecarumba
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 1365
Quote: AZDuffman
Not "ironic" but more just the way some parts of the world work. Look at Alsace and Loraine. Are they French or German. Not just by who won the last war, but culturally? Where does Kashmir belong? Quebec may one day leave Canada if the rewards for leaving outweigh the rewards for staying.

Since WWII the USA has locked in a world system that makes leaving much harder than it was pre-1900. But that does not change the preferences of people to form a nation that makes sense culturally. Sometimes even the system is not enough to keep things from breaking apart, for an example there look at Yugoslavia. People were forced together by, well brutal force. Brutal force was used to rip it apart.

So back to CA. It was part of Mexico, but there was only nominal Mexican control. There was only nominal Spanish control before that. Too remote to control or attack, the border lasted until the Bear Flag Republic, one of the shortest lived nations ever. Then the USA got and was able to keep control. 160 or so years is a long time for such a "borderland" to be under control of one nation, long in a western perspective anyhow. In wold history it is a blip. So a flip back might be natural.


I can understand where you are coming from if an established population was simply absorbed by the expansion of the US into California, but the state is full of folks, or descendants of folks, who originally lived somewhere else (Gold Rush settlers, Dust Bowl Okies, WWII defense workers, Vietnamese boat people, Armenians, Iranians, El Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Tech job seekers...) so, outside of small bands of folks with Native American Tribal identities, there isn't an ancestral tie to the land strong enough to desire separation from the USofA.
December 6th, 2016 at 5:03:19 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 102
Posts: 6655
Quote: Ayecarumba
I can understand where you are coming from if an established population was simply absorbed by the expansion of the US into California, but the state is full of folks, or descendants of folks, who originally lived somewhere else (Gold Rush settlers, Dust Bowl Okies, WWII defense workers, Vietnamese boat people, Armenians, Iranians, El Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Tech job seekers...) so, outside of small bands of folks with Native American Tribal identities, there isn't an ancestral tie to the land strong enough to desire separation from the USofA.


Which means it also does not have the same deep ties. The Mexican population alone gives a nice mass of people who might want to leave. Ever see the illegal-immigrant rallies and how it is all Mexican not USA flags?

The signs so far are small, but small signs are what you first watch for.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
December 26th, 2016 at 6:12:03 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 102
Posts: 6655
Another interesting article on the subject.

Looks like the ballot measure needs 55% to go to step 2. This first vote is not to leave, but to just strike a part of the CA Constitution stating that the state is bound to the USA. It is not that hard to see that passing as even just a protest vote. Liberal Californians sort of acting like a wife who thinks her husband takes her for granted.

If it passes then the vote to leave. That one of course just makes things way complicated. It would also be 2 years down the road, but 2 years would show if this is a hissy-fit or serious.

CA has a chicken-or-feathers tax and budget system. If the economy hiccups they will have a budget crisis, with billions in cuts. That could be the difference. Trump tells them to drop dead during such a ballot initiative and it could be supercharged. A crisis could supercharge anyways.

At the moment it is still fun to watch. The fact that it is getting more and more coverage means expect to see a vote.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
December 26th, 2016 at 7:56:27 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 49
Posts: 4708
Quote: Ayecarumba
I disagree. California's residents rely on huge federal aid subsidies for roads, schools, the power grid, the water supply, the welfare system, medical insurance, home loans, and social security. The state would not be able to sustain these institutions alone.

Roads are not a priority in Cascadia.
Schools are not favored; homeschooling is preferred as the schools are a boondoggle of incompetence and enforced taxation.
The power grid is another example of being yoked to corportate interests and big government. Power in Cascadia comes from wind, water, biofuels, fuel cells, etc.
Water supply is important. It rains alot in Cascadia. Rain barrels and cisterns are important. LOCAL is paramount in Cascadia.
Home loans means empowering corporate and distant banks instead of LOCAL banks who would be required to originate AND HOLD mortgages in their community, not sell or trade them.
Medical Insurance salesmen have been known to disappear in Cascadia. Ofcourse their belts or their shoes are sometimes seen again with someone else wearing them ofcourse, but Cascadians don't hold no truck with Medical Insurance.
Jefferson County Oregon has a sherrif that has office hours three days a week. No jail. Judges must find local solutions and not burden the taxpayers. Public Defenders get minimum wage only and defendants get no jury consultants or expert witnesses. Neither the federal, state or local government can impose financial burdens that detract from the quality of life in Cascadia. Ambulances are volunteer, as are fire departments. Policing comes from The Night Riders if things get out of hand.
February 19th, 2017 at 6:25:47 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 102
Posts: 6655
‘California is a nation, not a state’: A fringe movement wants a break from the U.S.

Not much new in the article content-wise. But it seems the movement has found its center. 53 chapters in the state. If the measue gets on the ballot and passes then they will surely be around several more years. Even if it fails, this could be at the point where it stays as a movement. This is how this kind of thing gets started. Also some money getting behind it.

I did have to laugh where it said CA is underrepresented in POTUS elections. That could be the real fissure point. CA thinks they are not represented enough, most of the rest of the USA thinks they have too much influence. No way to bridge that gap.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it