Abraham Lincoln is in aggregate ranked as America's greatest president

A great deal of the conflict leading up the USCW had to do with the states and territories acquired by Polk. So the Manifest Destiny meme also cost the lives of 600,000 mostly white Americans.

Want to joke about that, too?

Quote: Nareed

A great deal of the conflict leading up the USCW had to do with the states and territories acquired by Polk. So the Manifest Destiny meme also cost the lives of 600,000 mostly white Americans.

Want to joke about that, too?

Are you saying Lincoln should have avoided conflict with the South and let the CSA and slavery continue to exist in order to save White lives?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Are you saying Lincoln should have avoided conflict with the South and let the CSA and slavery continue to exist in order to save White lives?

I'm saying had Polk not gone aconquerin' like a Roman emperor, the whole thing might have been avoided, while things gradually changed.

Support for slavery had been slipping, even in the South.

Quote: Nareed

I'm saying had Polk not gone aconquerin' like a Roman emperor, the whole thing might have been avoided, while things gradually changed.

It is possibly the greatest "what if" of American History. Polk's election in 1844 started the bloodiest two decades of USA's existence.

Henry Clay was anti-annexation of Texas and tried preserve North-South sectional unity and to avoid war with Mexico. He lost by less than 2% of the popular vote. Many historians felt that slavery would have ended anyway. Brazil ended slavery without war (in 1888). Brazil probably imported 10X the number of slaves from Africa as British North America.

Quote: Pacomartin

It is possibly the greatest "what if" of American History. Polk's election in 1844 started the bloodiest two decades of USA's existence.

Henry Clay was anti-annexation of Texas and tried preserve North-South sectional unity and to avoid war with Mexico. He lost by less than 2% of the popular vote. Many historians felt that slavery would have ended anyway.

Many historians cite Eli Whitney as, unwittingly, extending the grip of slavery for decades. The notion is that without the cotton gin to process cotton quickly, efficiently and economically, there'd have been no use for large cotton plantations in the south.

Anyway, had there'd been no civil war and no threats of secession, slavery would either have ended or the country would have split, albeit in a different fashion.

Most of the alternate histories surrounding the civil war have the south winning one way or another, and then there's a look at the consequences later on. I can think of a few exceptions, and then it's the north that wins but differently (ie Lincoln gets killed visiting the front, or by southern terrorists, or he hunts vampires in his spare time or something). I know of none where the war never happens, or that looks at a different resolution to the conflict with Mexico.

Quote: Nareed

Most of the alternate histories surrounding the civil war have the south winning one way or another, and then there's a look at the consequences later on. I can think of a few exceptions, and then it's the north that wins but differently (ie Lincoln gets killed visiting the front, or by southern terrorists, or he hunts vampires in his spare time or something). I know of none where the war never happens, or that looks at a different resolution to the conflict with Mexico.

Well, you are better versed in alternative histories than I am. But there is a TV show called "Timeless" where a group of three time travelers are pursuing another time traveler who is bent on destroying the USA. At one point he goes to the Alamo and befriends Santa Anna. He also murders William Travis before he writes the letter below.

The argument is that the letter is what rallies Texas to win the Texas Revolution (October 2, 1835 - April 21, 1836) . In turn the Texas Revolution leads to the Mexican American War (April 25, 1846 - February 3, 1848) a decade later. Than without California becoming a "free" state, there is no major instigation for the Civil War (April 12, 1861 - May 9, 1865). At some point (it's not clear how), the America we know is destroyed.

Quote: William Barrett Travis' Letter from the Alamo, 1836

To The People of Texas and All Americans
Commandancy of the Alamo Bejar, Fby. 24th 1836

To the People of Texas & all Americans in the world Fellow citizens & compatriots. I am besieged, by a thousand or more of the Mexicans under Santa Anna. I have sustained a continual Bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion, otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the sword, if the fort is taken. I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, & our flag still waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrender or retreat. Then, I call on you in the name of Liberty, of patriotism & & every thing dear to the American character, to come to our aid, with all dispatch. The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily & will no doubt increase to three or four thousand in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible & die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country. Victory or Death
William Barret Travis/ Lt. Col. comdt

P.S. The Lord is on our side. When the enemy appeared in sight we had not three bushels of corn. We have since found in deserted houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.
Travis

Since the above was written I heard a very heavy Cannonade during the whole day think there must have been an attack made upon the alamo We were short of ammunition when I left Hurry on all the men you can in haste. When I left there was but 150 determined to do or die tomorrow I leave for Bejar with what men I can raise [copy here illegible] at all events.
Col. Almonte is there the troops are under the Command of Gen. Seisma Albert Martin

Nb I hope that Every One will Rondevu at gonzales as soon poseble as the Brave Solders are suffering do not neglect this powder is very scarce and should not be delad one moment L. Smither

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Lincoln let the Confederate states split off. We will never know, but I wonder if choosing the Civil War was the greater sin.

Quote: Wizard

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Lincoln let the Confederate states split off. We will never know, but I wonder if choosing the Civil War was the greater sin.

The constitution was over 70 years old, and the South had only one moderate size city. Slavery was vanishing over most of the world, so conventional wisdom was that the South would have simply collapsed economically and asked to rejoin the Union.

Rank City State Population (1860)
01 New York New York 813,669
02 Philadelphia Pennsylvania 565,529
03 Brooklyn New York 266,661
04 Baltimore Maryland 212,418
05 Boston Massachusetts 177,840
06 New Orleans Louisiana 168,675

Personally, I think that without the threat of military action, Europe (especially Britain) would have continued to purchase cotton from the Confederate states and they would have functioned economically as a slave state as long or longer than Brazil (1888).

Even with the civil war, there was still no major cities in the South until close to WWII.

Rank | Place |1930 Population| (sq miles)|pop/sq. mile)
----------------------------------------------------------------
1 New York city, NY *...... 6,930,446 299.0 23,179
2 Chicago city, IL......... 3,376,438 201.9 16,723
3 Philadelphia city, PA.... 1,950,961 128.0 15,242
4 Detroit city, MI......... 1,568,662 137.9 11,375
5 Los Angeles city, CA..... 1,238,048 440.3 2,812
6 Cleveland city, OH....... 900,429 70.8 12,718
7 St. Louis city, MO....... 821,960 61.0 13,475
8 Baltimore city, MD....... 804,874 78.7 10,227
9 Boston city, MA.......... 781,188 43.9 17,795
10 Pittsburgh city, PA...... 669,817 51.3 13,057
11 San Francisco city, CA... 634,394 42.0 15,105
12 Milwaukee city, WI....... 578,249 41.1 14,069
13 Buffalo city, NY......... 573,076 38.9 14,732
14 Washington city, DC...... 486,869 62.0 7,853
15 Minneapolis city, MN..... 464,356 55.4 8,382
16 New Orleans city, LA..... 458,762 196.0 2,341
17 Cincinnati city, OH...... 451,160 71.4 6,319
18 Newark city, NJ.......... 442,337 23.6 18,743
19 Kansas City city, MO..... 399,746 58.6 6,822
20 Seattle city, WA......... 365,583 68.5 5,337

Quote: Wizard

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Lincoln let the Confederate states split off. We will never know, but I wonder if choosing the Civil War was the greater sin.

Germany would dominate Europe.
Japan would be an empire in the Pacific.

Slavery would have died out by 1880, for sure 1900. Slaves would have probably been shipped to Africa or "Negro Reservations" similar to Indian Reservations.

Quote: Pacomartin

Well, you are better versed in alternative histories than I am.

Not really. I keep finding disappointment and replay in most stories...

IMO, it's a cultural thing. Most Americans don't regard the USCW as something bad or terrible, even when considering what it cost in blood and treasure. On the contrary, it's a "good" war. To this day there are southern sympathizers and apologists who keep attempting to whitewash the south, as though slavery wasn't the main reason for secession.

Quote:

But there is a TV show called "Timeless" where a group of three time travelers are pursuing another time traveler who is bent on destroying the USA. At one point he goes to the Alamo and befriends Santa Anna. He also murders William Travis before he writes the letter below.

Interesting. Very Asimovian in concept (Minimum Necessary Change). I should try to look it up.