The Trump implosion thread!

Poll
2 votes (8.69%)
1 vote (4.34%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (8.69%)
2 votes (8.69%)
13 votes (56.52%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (8.69%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (4.34%)

23 members have voted

March 9th, 2017 at 1:10:47 PM permalink
ams288
Member since: Apr 21, 2016
Threads: 29
Posts: 12422
Quote: pew
If I'm not covered so be it, I'll just have to wait for medicare.


Hopefully nothing bad happens to you in the meantime...
“A straight man will not go for kids.” - AZDuffman
March 9th, 2017 at 3:35:29 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
I usually stay away from political threads but as a former Social Security actuary, I'll put in my two cents.

I worked for Social Security's actuarial department from 1992 to 2000. Pretty much the Clinton years. As much as I think Clinton was one of the better presidents of my lifetime, I didn't care for his approach to fixing the looming demographic crisis in either Medicare or Social Security. He pretty much said that he wanted to strengthen Social Security, especially for women and the poor. Then he washed his hands and let congress come up with something. Boy did they come up with complicated ideas that functioned little or nothing like the existing program. I'm sure the congressmen who came up with these messes couldn't be bothered to learn how the current program works and how it might be adjusted to accomplish what they want. I would have been happy to help them understand how the program currently works and could be easily changed to accomplish whatever they wanted. But, no, there were too many levels of bureaucrats between me and Capitol Hill. By the time anything hit my desk it was invariably a steaming pile of horse manure.

From what I've heard of both Obama Care and Trump Care, the same thing seems to be happening. When I hear of bills that are thicker than the Los Angeles County phone book, I just know there were too many cooks, who didn't know how to cook, in the kitchen.

I admit that health care is not my strong suit. However, we already have two enormous government programs that at least function -- Medicare and Medicaid. Let's not throw those away or change them into something new but build on them. Not that anybody cares, but if I had my way, Wizard Care would start with giving everyone at least Medicaid. For anybody who wishes to opt out, they would have to get their own insurance. For this, they would get a voucher according to their age only, equivalent to how much they would save the government, according to their age only. I would not want government involved in individually calculating vouchers on a person by person basis for the whole country according to their whole general health. The private sector would be allowed to screen for pre-existing conditions and generally be allowed to price their product as they wish, with a sensible amount of regulation to ensure policy holders get reasonable care according to what they pay for.

I would be honest and simply pay for all this with a tax increase. I would not pit one class against another but raise every income tax rate by x% to fund the program over the long term.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 9th, 2017 at 4:34:52 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Wizard
The private sector would be allowed to screen for pre-existing conditions and generally be allowed to price their product as they wish, with a sensible amount of regulation to ensure policy holders get reasonable care according to what they pay for.


That's a big effing detail. And it's one reason why a private market makes sense over a business or institutional one.

It's easy to see why insurers don't want to cover preexisting conditions. The analogy with car insurance works well: if you crash your car and then get insurance, the company won't want to pay for the crash damage, and you wouldn't expect them to.

But car insurance is more of an individual market. So you own the car and the insurance for it.

With health insurance suppose you developed a chronic condition, say diabetes, while you were insured by your employer. If you are fired, change jobs, or your employer goes broke, you may lose coverage for your diabetes as a preexisting condition, even if you get insurance at a new job. This wouldn't happen if you owned your health insurance.

Now, the tax code could easily be rewritten so that businesses could pay employees cash for health insurance, so employees would buy their own plan as they want and own it, and make the income for the employees exempt from taxes as far as its spent on health insurance (ie, a $15,000 payment used entirely to pay for insurance for yourself and your family is 100% tax free; but if you use up only $14,000, then $1,000 are taxed as regular income).
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
March 9th, 2017 at 5:00:04 PM permalink
reno
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 58
Posts: 1384
This right-wing blogger makes a relevant point:

Quote: HotAir Blog
...the Brookings Institution estimated today that up to 15 million people could lose coverage under the GOP bill over 10 years thanks to the repeal of the individual mandate. Republicans can shrug that off and say “liberal think tank.” If the coming number from CBO is anywhere in that ballpark, the shrugging won’t be so easy.


By the way check out what the House of Representatives calls it: "World's Greatest Healthcare Plan of 2017." (I'm not making this up!)
March 9th, 2017 at 5:14:30 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
Quote: Nareed
That's a big effing detail. And it's one reason why a private market makes sense over a business or institutional one.


I agree. And to those who sing the blues because they have a pre-existing condition, I say you're getting Medicaid for free, which is ultimately subsidized by healthy people. Quit your complaining.

Quote:
It's easy to see why insurers don't want to cover preexisting conditions. The analogy with car insurance works well: if you crash your car and then get insurance, the company won't want to pay for the crash damage, and you wouldn't expect them to.


I think the model for life insurance works well, which does ask and test for pre-existing conditions. I don't see why health insurance should be different. To play the devil's advocate, I think Obama Care supporters would say that insurers were allowed to raise their rates on everybody to pay for the sick. However, as I understand it, they could raise them only so much per year, which is why many went broke. I've been through three companies since Obama Care started and my premiums have at least doubled. I'm actually okay with paying more to help the sick, but I feel like the way it was done was rather dishonest or unrealistic.

Finally, I think the healthy should be rewarded for it with lower premiums.

Quote:
With health insurance suppose you developed a chronic condition, say diabetes, while you were insured by your employer. If you are fired, change jobs, or your employer goes broke, you may lose coverage for your diabetes as a preexisting condition, even if you get insurance at a new job. This wouldn't happen if you owned your health insurance.


Under my model I would imagine that most people would be satisfied with Medicaid so employer-funded insurance would become mostly a thing of the past. I could see plans like Medicaid supplements, which I would have no problem with. I would be fine with a COBRA law where former employees could pay for the supplement they had under and employer for a certain period of time. I had such a plan from the Venetian when I nearly died from food poisoning. Thank goodness. I'll say one thing for the Sands Corporation, they had good health insurance.

Quote:
Now, the tax code could easily be rewritten so that businesses could pay employees cash for health insurance, so employees would buy their own plan as they want and own it, and make the income for the employees exempt from taxes as far as its spent on health insurance (ie, a $15,000 payment used entirely to pay for insurance for yourself and your family is 100% tax free; but if you use up only $14,000, then $1,000 are taxed as regular income).


I would favor a provision allowing employees to opt out of employer-covered insurance. Lots of people here are double covered through their own employment and their spouses.

In general, I favor Medicaid as the safety net and let the free market do what it wishes, with moderate regulation, for supplemental coverage. I also favor doing whatever needs to be done to attract more people into the medical profession. There is simply a shortage of care in the U.S. and expanding coverage only leads to more difficult access to health care you're entitled to. To attract more doctors and nurses I favor opening more medical schools and I like the deal of free education in exchange for so many years of service to the government as a health care provider, like on Northern Exposure.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 9th, 2017 at 6:16:02 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Wizard
I agree. And to those who sing the blues because they have a pre-existing condition, I say you're getting Medicaid for free, which is ultimately subsidized by healthy people. Quit your complaining.


No way in hell the GOP would ever expand Medicaid that much.

The thing about preexisting conditions, is that a lot of people will develop chronic conditions over a lifetime. Diabetes, high-blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, lupus, arthritis, etc.

Quote:
I think the model for life insurance works well, which does ask and test for pre-existing conditions. I don't see why health insurance should be different.


It shouldn't.

If insurers simply could not exclude anyone for preexisting conditions, then one of two things happen: 1) You force everyone to have or get insurance, as Obamacare did, or 2) people buy insurance only when they are sick, either driving premiums to the stratosphere, or bankrupting the industry altogether.

It's not that you can't get insured if you have a preexisting condition, it's that your insurance won't cover it. For things like diabetes or high blood pressure, which carry a higher risk for stroke or heart attack for example, this means that may not be covered either.

All this could be avoided by letting people own their insurance and to make it portable all over the country.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
March 9th, 2017 at 7:38:26 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
Quote: Nareed
No way in hell the GOP would ever expand Medicaid that much.


I agree. One thing I'll give Trump credit for is he said he would like to cover everybody. I think he doesn't have a clue how but I at least respect his courage to break from party line when he doesn't agree with it.

At the end of the day, I think it is an embarrassment that the United States doesn't have socialized medicine. I ultimately agree with Michael Moore that the private sector cannot be trusted to provide health care when their own motive is to minimize the expense of it. However, I don't feel the private sector should be left out of it. Give them the challenge that if they can do better than government, go ahead. Give the public a voucher if they feel they can do better in the free market. Exactly my position on education.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 10th, 2017 at 5:04:30 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Quote: Wizard

At the end of the day, I think it is an embarrassment that the United States doesn't have socialized medicine. .


Totally agree
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
March 10th, 2017 at 5:39:55 AM permalink
SOOPOO
Member since: Feb 19, 2014
Threads: 22
Posts: 4157
Quote: Wizard
Give them the challenge that if they can do better than government, go ahead.


I can ASSURE you that dealing with any government insurance, ESPECIALLY medicare, is a mess. Let me work with a private insurer EVERY time.
March 10th, 2017 at 8:17:43 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Wizard
One thing I'll give Trump credit for is he said he would like to cover everybody.


First he looks presidential because he reads someone else's words off a teleprompter for an hour, now you're giving him credit for wishes. Kindly stop lowering the bar for this asshole. Thanks.

Quote:
I think he doesn't have a clue how but I at least respect his courage to break from party line when he doesn't agree with it.


It's not his party.

Quote:
At the end of the day, I think it is an embarrassment that the United States doesn't have socialized medicine.


That has a really rotten record in many respects.

Mexico has socialized medicine, but also private medicine. I'll spare you the details, and there are many, and just sum it up thus:

The level of care at government facilities (socialized medicine) is about as good as that in private ones. But there are wait lists, shortages of medication, and access problems. The latter is fascinating. I'll give you one example:

One time a colleague was at the Century XXI Medical Center on business (we sell them food). This is a whole city block with 4 specialized hospitals (cardiology, pediatrics, oncology, and assorted specialties), plus a few clinics. Next to it is Mexico's General Hospital, also taking up a whole city block. To its back is Mexico's Children's Hospital, another whole-block facility specialized in pediatrics.

Ok, my colleague's driver was feeling poorly. The man ahs a history of diabetes and at the time was nearing 70. So right there with 6 hospitals and assorted clinics and literally hundreds of doctors readily available, he hailed a cab and sent his driver to his assigned clinic about 15 miles away through city traffic. it took him 45 minutes to get there (he was ok).

I can tell you about the sliced finger. That was epic. I've been to many of these government hospitals in the course of business, and from time to time I've seen things.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER