The Holy Trinity

Quote: FrGamble

Isn't every choice we make personal in some way?

You are starting down the path of a logical fallacy.

If person A has faith in X, it has no bearing on the validity of person B's faith in Y.

Quote: FrGamble

Regardless, Yes we make a personal choice in regards to religion but it claims to be universally true. That is what I'm trying to get across is that the reason people have so much trouble with religious faith is that it is personal and at the same time claims to be true for everyone. For someone who thinks there are only two kinds of faith, one universal and another personal, it doesn't fit.

I don't know what else to say. We have a fundamental difference in opinion as to what makes something real and true, and the validity of a decision of whether or not to believe in something.

Quote: FrGamble

As Vatican II states there are sparks of truth all around us in various religions, stories, myths, etc. It is not surprising that humanity shares similar stories that speak truth to them and are expressed in various ways in different cultures. Some of it is preparation for the truth of the Bible being revealed. There are significant differences of course in the origin story, great flood, virgin birth as presented in the Bible with anything that came before. It may be that these earlier stories are like shadows of the truth to be revealed in the Old Testament and in Christ.

So, anything that came before the Bible is merely foreshadowing the Bible?

Quote: aceofspades

So, anything that came before the Bible is merely foreshadowing the Bible?

The reason there are flood stories in some ancient cultures is because the people who lived right after the flood went their separate ways when God intervened at the tower of Babble. They told these stories to their children grandchildren and on and on. They became distorted to varying degrees which is why most of them differ wildly from the true flood account preserved in Genesis.

Quote: FrGamble

Would you call holding unto to childish teachings being a real adult?

Yet that's what most god believers
do. They are capable of the most
cursory of discussion about god,
things they were taught when they
were 8. Ask them to prove god, and
they'll wave their arms around at
'all this', like it proves everything.
That's the total depth of thinking
they've done on it. There's a god,
that's what they were told, and it's
good enough for them. That's the
majority of the billions of god believers
you're always so proudly bragging
about.

"There will always be that nagging feeling that you've
been hoodwinked" is a good assessment. Ever
see the reaction of a Xtion that has converted
a new sucker? Their attitude is awe, they
can't believe it, maybe it's really true. That's
the depth of their belief..

Quote: Dalex64

If person A has faith in X, it has no bearing on the validity of person B's faith in Y.
.

But to a Xtion it does. They know their
religion is silly and makes no sense, so
they won't feel comfortable until they
can convince everybody to believe it.

It's very much like the Santa Claus story.
They were told the Santa story and the
Jesus story at the same very young age.
But eventually they found out the Santa
story was a hoax, so they forgot about it.
The Jesus story is a hoax also, but it's one
they're forced to believe all their lives.
So they don't question it, that might lead
to a failure of faith, so they just go on
embarrassingly believing and are oh so
relieved when the get a convert once in
awhile.

Quote: Evenbob

Yet that's what most god believers
do. They are capable of the most
cursory of discussion about god,

Do you think this means they aren't strong believers or that because they can't explain sin or the Trinity to you these things don't exist? Do you think you may not be listening or want to hear the answer? Do you think you give them a fair hearing, you certainly don't me?

But the main mistake you are making is thinking that someone has to explain something perfectly to another person for them to really believe it or for it to be true. That is not logically sound. John Henry Newman once said that the heart has thousands of reasons for belief that the mind cannot explain (or something like that). My dear grandparents were hard working farmers and the best Catholics I have ever known. If I would have asked them to explain the Trinity they would have simply said God is one in three equal persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are all equally God. They probably would have been one of those who kindly looked at you dumbfounded if you said sin didn't exist. They knew better but they couldn't explain it in words, especially to a confused prejudiced atheist.

Quote:

Ask them to prove god, and
they'll wave their arms around at
'all this', like it proves everything.

Ask an atheist to prove that there is no God and watch what happens, oh wait we have all had a front row seat for that disaster thanks to you.

Quote:

That's the total depth of thinking
they've done on it. There's a god,
that's what they were told, and it's
good enough for them. That's the
majority of the billions of god believers
you're always so proudly bragging
about.

What disdain and judgement you have for those who believe different than you. Do you really think that people who have chosen to believe in God and follow Him have not thought about it deeply just because they can't explain it to your liking. It sounds like you are desperate for someone to show you proof for God because you secretly want to believe. It doesn't come through thinking about God but through loving God and that is what all of the billions of God believers I am always proudly bragging about do. You should try it too.

Evenbob, stop discussing religion it brings out the worst in you and in me. You really don't know what you are talking about and you keep presenting your feelings and wants as facts, they are not. Why don't we discuss Jack London's works? Have you read White Fang? Let's read it and discuss it together it is a great book.

Quote: Dalex64

If person A has faith in X, it has no bearing on the validity of person B's faith in Y.

No it doesn't. But if Y is not-X and both X and Y claim their faith is true than only one can be correct or valid.

Quote:

I don't know what else to say. We have a fundamental difference in opinion as to what makes something real and true, and the validity of a decision of whether or not to believe in something.

Here are a few questions to truly determine if we are as far apart as you think we are:

Is the scientific method the only way to determine if something is objectively true and real?

Can someone validly decide to believe in something based on an accumulation of evidence or do they have to have scientific certainty in order to validly decide to believe in something?

Quote: FrGamble

Ask an atheist to prove that there is no God and watch what happens, oh wait we have all had a front row seat for that disaster thanks to you..

Can you prove to me that an invisible, inaudible, undetectable dinosaur doesn't live in my back yard?

Quote: aceofspades

Can you prove to me that an invisible, inaudible, undetectable dinosaur doesn't live in my back yard?

No, but if it becomes visible, roars, and leaves a footprint I could show you evidence.

In fact it wouldn't make sense to believe there was such a dinosaur until there is evidence. Wouldn't it be wiser to say I will wait for evidence than either believing there was such a creature or in declaring with certainty that there is none.

Quote: FrGamble

No, but if it becomes visible, roars, and leaves a footprint I could show you evidence.

In fact it wouldn't make sense to believe there was such a dinosaur until there is evidence. Wouldn't it be wiser to say I will wait for evidence than either believing there was such a creature or in declaring with certainty that there is none.

That is a false premise -- why didn't we wait to determine Berkowitz's guilt or innocence until we found the talking dog???