ESA- the most controversial environmental protection law

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May 1st, 2017 at 4:44:04 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569

The world's most commonly trafficked animal.

While the general public supports most conservation laws like the MMPA (Marine Mammal Protection Act) and NEPA (National Environmental Protection Act), the ESA (Endangered Species Act) can cause near riots. In 1990, the logging industry estimated up to 30,000 of 168,000 jobs would be lost because of the Spotted Owl's status being changed to Endangered. The job losses agreed closely with a Forest Service estimate.

As the ESA began to list more and more insects as well as birds and mammals, the law became more and more controversial as it looked like many jobs and potential fortunes were being lost for bugs that were slightly different than other bugs.
May 1st, 2017 at 5:44:51 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
Bars and wood carvers loved the Spotted Owl. All those unemployed loggers had to spend their money drinking because there was nothing else to do. All those businesses with 'we support the logging industry' signs kept the wood carvers rich.

I recall some dam was endangered because of something called a snail darter but don't recall what it was. Seemed to only exist in one location anyway.

"Just slightly different".... some of those slight differences can be important.

We've made enough mistakes in killing off things.... so what if we make a mistake in protecting it.
May 1st, 2017 at 5:59:23 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Pacomartin


As the ESA began to list more and more insects as well as birds and mammals, the law became more and more controversial as it looked like many jobs and potential fortunes were being lost for bugs that were slightly different than other bugs.


The problem is there are so many species go extinct every year no matter what. George Carlin had a bit on it I cannot search for now, but it is great.

The Bald Eagle going extinct is one thing. Some subspecies of slug nobody ever heard of is another. Good intentions, bad current practice.
The President is a fink.
May 1st, 2017 at 6:54:48 AM permalink
JimRockford
Member since: Sep 18, 2015
Threads: 2
Posts: 971
Quote: AZDuffman
The problem is there are so many species go extinct every year no matter what. George Carlin had a bit on it I cannot search for now, but it is great.

The Bald Eagle going extinct is one thing. Some subspecies of slug nobody ever heard of is another. Good intentions, bad current practice.


Quote:
(any species worth saving like the bald eagle) is part of a larger network of species, and it's difficult to separate them from it. Wiping out one of these species might not make much difference, or then again it might cause a chain reaction that alters the entire ecosystem. It's hard to predict the effect of killing off a species unless you go ahead and kill it – and then it's too late to reverse it.


From a BBC article
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150715-why-save-an-endangered-species
Kinda what Fleastiff said.
The mind hungers for that on which it feeds.
May 1st, 2017 at 8:00:57 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: JimRockford


But the thing is you cannot save them all. You cannot save most of them. You can probably save a small part of them. Species were going extinct long before man walked the earth and will still in 1,000 years when man dies off. It is nature. Ecosystems will adapt, always have.
The President is a fink.
May 1st, 2017 at 11:09:53 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Fleastiff
I recall some dam was endangered because of something called a snail darter but don't recall what it was. Seemed to only exist in one location anyway.


The Snail Darter is a species of perch, discovered in 1973. It was listed as endangered under the U.S. Endangered Species Act of 1973 by 1975 and was involved in a legal controversy leading to a Supreme Court ruling to halt the completion of Tellico Dam, which posed a risk of extinction for the snail darter by blocking its migratory route.

Congress finally exempted the Tellico Dam from the Endangered Species Act as an amendment in an unrelated bill. The gates were closed on the dam and Tellico Lake (a reservoir) began to form in 1979. Remnant populations of the snail darter were later located in other streams.



Most people support the preservation of species until it has a major effect on economics. Then people start saying that the endangered species is just minutely different from another species, and the world will lose nothing if it is gone.

Support of ESA for mammals is usually strong. Exceptions are some ranchers. The Marine Mammal Protection Act has almost universal support as very few people are affected economically. Plus marine mammals have been elevated to near divinity status in our culture.
May 1st, 2017 at 11:47:25 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
in 1,000 years when man dies off.


Probably not gonna happen unless we
poison ourselves with radiation. We
get smarter and smarter literally every
week, not dumber. If we were going to
die off, it would have happened 100K
years ago, not 1k years from now.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 1st, 2017 at 2:32:52 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
I've never even seen a pangolin in a zoo, let alone a friend's apartment. How is it the most trafficked?
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
May 1st, 2017 at 3:14:02 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
How reliable would such data be? Traffickers, buyers, sellers.... all have little reason to tell the truth. Customs seizures are rarely valid in dollar amount for drugs so I expect just about the same lack of data quality for smuggled organisms.
May 1st, 2017 at 3:16:22 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob
Probably not gonna happen unless we
poison ourselves with radiation. We
get smarter and smarter literally every
week, not dumber. If we were going to
die off, it would have happened 100K
years ago, not 1k years from now.


It is going to happen. "Smarts" has nothing to do with it. Falling birthrates and an eventual inability to keep up the infrastructure we already have because of that will over the next 150 years put humanity into a terminal decline. Last person alive please log off.......
The President is a fink.
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