Gun Control -- As usual discussed only after a massacre.

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10 members have voted

October 5th, 2017 at 3:35:00 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: petroglyph


Close to what I thought, especially about being in Indian Wars most of the 1800s. Though I would take issue by saying "Cold War" was "at war."
The President is a fink.
October 5th, 2017 at 6:55:16 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Face
Lol, then you'd be out of luck.


Like hell I am. Then I engage in another obsessively American pastime: I'll sue someone.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
October 5th, 2017 at 9:18:23 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
I've asked this before and will do so again: What are you going to do about it?

Around 33,000 people die each year in America due to guns. About 2/3 of these are suicides. That leaves 11,000 people murdered each year.

Are you okay with this? Should we do nothing but begin digging graves for the next mass shooting?

So I ask yet again: what is to be done about this?
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
October 5th, 2017 at 9:33:57 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: kenarman
Distracted driving (and as I said earlier likely under reported) causes 3500 deaths in the US per year, this is compared to the 59 deaths in Vegas. If they all die at once or 10 a day does it really matter?


I think it does matter. These types of guns have the potential to kill 3500 people in one day, they should be somehow restricted so that this is hardly possible. Imagine three guys on the 32nd floor and what would have happened. I again think your argument about distracted driving is a good one. We fight against it we campaign against it, there are billboards about it. While billboards won't change gun violence there are things we should be doing that we aren't. What those things are still needs to be hammered out.



Quote:
On my part it isn't 20/20 hindsite. I starting complaining about the overkill on security on 9/11 shortly after it became obvious how far it was going to be taken. The 9/11 deaths were also insignificant compared to the annual deaths in the US.


I don't see how or why you keep suggesting this. Do you mean that, like Face was pointing out, that gun violence counts for a small amount of deaths overall, as do terrorist attacks? I grant you that. However, I think it doesn't make such deaths insignificant as to what these things do to our country, its morale, its spirit, its sense of itself. Unlike distracted driving deaths these things effect us all and require a response. This is not some accident or physical illness, it is spiritual sickness that is manifested in senseless evil violence. This requires some response, even if it is symbolic, to help us. I ask you again - if you were president what would you have done in regards to air travel after 9/11?



Quote:
The more you talk about it the more entrenched gun owners become, the more mass shooting seem like an option and the less likely that anything meaningful will happen.


I don't follow your logic here. If I talk to someone about not committing adultery and it makes them upset and entrenched in their view, should I stop talking about it? Not that owning a gun is sinful or anything, but just because talking about something makes someone upset and/or challenged doesn't mean we shouldn't have the discussion. I don't see how it makes a mass shooting more possible. For evil to triumph all that is required is for good people to remain silent.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 5th, 2017 at 11:47:20 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Well the NRA is in favor of some additional legislation, so the Republicans are allowed to proceed now.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 5th, 2017 at 11:51:00 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: FrGamble
I think it does matter. These types of guns have the potential to kill 3500 people in one day, they should be somehow restricted so that this is hardly possible.
I feel the same way about restricting religion, but you don't see me blabbing it all over the internet.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
October 5th, 2017 at 12:11:16 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: Dalex64
Well the NRA is in favor of some additional legislation, so the Republicans are allowed to proceed now.


Laws against designer drugs and illegal gun accessories seem to work the same way.

The intent is violated once a new work-a-round is accomplished. But they usually can't prosecute under the original laws.

Bump stops clearly violate the intent.

Republicans with any knowledge of that, are of course full of it about doing anything.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
October 5th, 2017 at 1:12:25 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: FrGamble
I think it does matter. These types of guns have the potential to kill 3500 people in one day, they should be somehow restricted so that this is hardly possible. Imagine three guys on the 32nd floor and what would have happened. I again think your argument about distracted driving is a good one. We fight against it we campaign against it, there are billboards about it. While billboards won't change gun violence there are things we should be doing that we aren't. What those things are still needs to be hammered out.


If we have 3500 people killed in one day from guns that is called a war. Totally different problem.



Quote: FrGamble
I don't see how or why you keep suggesting this. Do you mean that, like Face was pointing out, that gun violence counts for a small amount of deaths overall, as do terrorist attacks? I grant you that. However, I think it doesn't make such deaths insignificant as to what these things do to our country, its morale, its spirit, its sense of itself. Unlike distracted driving deaths these things effect us all and require a response. This is not some accident or physical illness, it is spiritual sickness that is manifested in senseless evil violence. This requires some response, even if it is symbolic, to help us. I ask you again - if you were president what would you have done in regards to air travel after 9/11?


We live in a world of limited resources Padre. Most people have a few pet causes and push for unlimited funding for their causes and conveniently forget that for every dollar they advocate for and get someone else doesn't get a dollar for their pet cause. I believe that every time we spend we should be examining if that is the best use of the funds. I think that the trillions of dollars we spend on security is far from the best use for those funds. This spending is probably one of the reasons that the US has become much less competitive in the world. You might feel that the economy being efficient is not important but over the long haul it means less money for the social programs we need.

If I was president for 9/11 I would have upped the security some but I would not have allowed the spending to get to where it has. I wouldn't have allowed it to be an excuse to take away the citizens freedom and spy on the whole population. It would probably mean that under President Kenar more people might have died from terrorism but by saving trillions perhaps the economy could support a proper health plan, support the poor more, to pick on some spending I expect you would support. Possibly taxes would have been reduced and the economy would be thriving and the rust belt would not be the disaster it is. Padre you decide what to do with the trillions of dollars that would be saved but the cost is a few more lost lives from terrorism. It is the number of deaths from each option, as unpalatable as that might be, that need to weighed to make a decision. An example is my Canadian universal medical plan. Canada can't afford unlimited funding for the plan. The truth of it is that we restrict access to medical procedures due to wait times. Some people die during their wait time. Would you rather see Canada's portion of the security cost go to shorten these medical times or to making people feel safer. Life is about tough decisions Padre we can't have everything.

Quote: FrGamble
I don't follow your logic here. If I talk to someone about not committing adultery and it makes them upset and entrenched in their view, should I stop talking about it? Not that owning a gun is sinful or anything, but just because talking about something makes someone upset and/or challenged doesn't mean we shouldn't have the discussion. I don't see how it makes a mass shooting more possible. For evil to triumph all that is required is for good people to remain silent.


I believe that the more we talk about some things the more we make them seem a viable option. Almost everyone is abhorred at what happened in Vegas, they would never have thought to do it and it is still not on their bucket list. However for the few psychopaths among us we now have laid out a blueprint for them. If they crave attention they can see how much attention the act will bring them. For those psychopaths that might feel that a mass shooting is maybe a little over the top now they know that others saw it as a viable option and they might reconsider the decision to not do it. The media is a major contributor to this as they respond to the voyeurism in us all to feed every detail on the shooter, how he did it and what motivated him. The public doesn't need to know the details but the ratings drive it.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
October 5th, 2017 at 1:48:14 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Excellent post President Kenar. You have my vote. I really understand what you are saying here and I think you make some really good points to think about. Two things in particular that strike me. First, we need to make sure we don't exaggerate a response. Your example of trillions of dollars spent on security makes me think we have perpetually extended the war in the Middle East even if we bring every troop home. It is so expensive and weighs us down economically. It does make me daydream about what we could do with all that money. Secondly, I do believe in self-fulfilling prophecies. If you feel bad enough about yourself you will start acting that way. Likewise, if you feel how awesome you are you will live up according to your self-image. If we keep saying how bad the country is getting in regards to violence, that we are like the Wild West, over time that is exactly what it will become. So we do need to always keep perspective when talking about this rare but devastating moments in our country's history.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 5th, 2017 at 2:56:34 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: kenarman
I believe that the more we talk about some things the more we make them seem a viable option.


Probably but,

Some serial killers are happy to continue for years without being noticed, others seem to need to taunt authorities.

Some of our terrorist attacks, they attempt to get away -- I can't imagine they want a lot of ID of them in that case. Others seem to want people to know who they are.

There is also the issue where the public at large may be able to fill in holes if there really is a further conspiracy and others still alive or somehow involved. Not knowing the name or person to keep them from receiving fame would certainly hinder that.

And then -- we already get all these people wanting to know about the "cover-up" no matter how much information comes out.

I can't remember the case, but there was one where the cops kept most of the information secret for a long time while people in the area kept being attacked.

Thought it was the original night stalker, but not sure

Quote:
He would then separate the couple, often stacking dishes on the back of the male, and telling him that if he heard the dishes rattle he would kill everyone in the house.[12][13] The intruder at times spent hours in the home, ransacking closets and drawers,[14] eating food in the kitchen, and coming back to utter more threats to the victims, who were often unsure as to whether he was still in the home.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
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