Ultra Crowded Airports

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October 9th, 2017 at 1:53:33 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
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Quote: Fleastiff
In what way does a millionaire's private jet with five passengers cost the airport more than a scheduled airliner with 300 passengers.

Same airspace, same runway length, same parking space, same radar, same controllers.

Its the "prime time" that is limited and its 'prime' only to the airlines, but the airlines are not the airport's customers, the local community is. The five passenger jet may involve a local multimillion dollar real estate development, the 300 passenger plane probably involves gawkers grubbing for low priced rooms. Which is more valuable to the community.

The airport should serve the aviation community, not the airlines.

Airlines want prime slots; small planes don't need mile long runways and should not have to pay for them directly or indirectly.


In that month of data from La Gaurdia out of 15,000 takeoffs, there was one takeoff by a Bombardier Global 5000 (a $50 million plane) with 12 passengers.

What you are saying makes perfect sense in an unconstrained environment. It's possible that landing a Cessna at McCarran in 1989 was not such a big deal. But the result of too many landings per hour means massive delays for thousands of people.

The FAA is going to limit LGA to 71 scheduled operations per hour & 3 unscheduled operations per hour (M-F 0600 to 2159 & Sundays 1200 to 2159). If some of those operations are used for a 12 person business jet than there are less for commercial airlines.

I imagine that Bombardier Global 5000 came in on a Saturday when the airport is less busy. In the same way the perimeter does not apply so there was a weekend trip to Telluride Colorado flown by United with only 128 seats.
October 9th, 2017 at 10:49:45 AM permalink
Ayecarumba
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 85
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Is the situation of a small private plan landing at a large airport akin to toll lanes on public highways? Everyone is entitled to access and use the facility since it was paid for with public funds, however, those with the money have access to premium services?

I don't think an airport built with public funds can ever turn away a citizen's plane, but how do landing/take off fees work?
October 9th, 2017 at 11:11:21 AM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
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Quote: Ayecarumba
I don't think an airport built with public funds can ever turn away a citizen's plane, but how do landing/take off fees work?


But the plane should pay its fair share of expenses to run and maintain the airport. In an emergency, no plan should be turned away but I think it is normal with boats to paying a docking fee.
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October 9th, 2017 at 11:25:03 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Wizard
But the plane should pay its fair share of expenses to run and maintain the airport. In an emergency, no plan should be turned away but I think it is normal with boats to paying a docking fee.


As far as I know, all airplanes landing anywhere are charged fees for landing and other services. LAS has a general aviation terminal, so they do offer services to private planes.

I've heard some aviation clubs arrange for various payments to airports and such, but I'd thought this meant the small, local places these small, private planes usually operate from.

So, did your friend not pay a landing fee?
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
October 9th, 2017 at 11:56:27 AM permalink
DRich
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 18
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Quote: Nareed
As far as I know, all airplanes landing anywhere are charged fees for landing and other services. LAS has a general aviation terminal, so they do offer services to private planes.

I've heard some aviation clubs arrange for various payments to airports and such, but I'd thought this meant the small, local places these small, private planes usually operate from.

So, did your friend not pay a landing fee?


Our company has three planes at McCarran airport in Las Vegas and one plane at the Henderson airport. I am not sure if we pay landing fees or not. Most people will be using one of the FBO's that charge for service but we have our own hangar and staff.
October 9th, 2017 at 1:12:17 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 50
Posts: 5266
Its like the Panama Canal. A tiny sailboat pays a small fee but has a right to use the canal just as a humungous tanker does.

Many private airports are Public Use since federal funds were expended in building Vortacs or something or in funding runway construction.

Even a US air force base has to let a civilian plane land if the pilot utters the magic words.
October 9th, 2017 at 1:43:12 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
Posts: 9026
Quote: Wizard
But the plane should pay its fair share of expenses to run and maintain the airport. In an emergency, no plane should be turned away but I think it is normal with boats to paying a docking fee.


Of course, the Cessna paid a "landing fee" or a "ramp fee". Some FAA statistics on usage by General Aviation (GA) local or itinerant aircraft for some airports are below. But some airports are "general aviation" airports. They have zero or almost zero locally based GA aircraft. They also can only handle GA itinerant operations rarely. "Air Taxi" in this case means small commuter planes, and not actual taxi service. Mc Carran International Airport has a relatively large amount of GA activity for such a busy commercial airport (compared to Laguardia, LAX, SAN, ATL)

Mc Carran International Airport (12-month period ending on 12/31/2016)
GA Local: 8,966
GA Itinerant: 35,863
Commercial: 359,394
Air Taxi: 136,147
Military: 1,058


North Las Vegas Airport Activity (12-month period ending on 12/31/2016)
GA Local: 82,612
GA Itinerant: 57,032
Commercial: 12
Air Taxi: 17,287
Military: 1,605



San Diego International Airport (12-month period ending on 6/30/2017)
GA Local: 0
GA Itinerant: 9,719
Commercial: 178,606
Air Taxi: 11,899
Military: 814

Gillespie Field Airport San Diego/El Cajon, CA (12-month period ending on 12/31/2016)- 15 miles from SAN
GA Local: 141,797
GA Itinerant: 84,046
Commercial: 0
Air Taxi: 525
Military: 519

Los Angeles International Airport (12-month period ending on 11/30/2016)
GA Local: 0
GA Itinerant: 22,692
Commercial: 568,276
Air Taxi: 45,291
Military: 1,099

Hartsfield - Jackson Atlanta International Airport (12-month period ending on 12/31/2016)
GA Local: 0
GA Itinerant: 7,892
Commercial: 798,202
Air Taxi: 92,041
Military: 221

Laguardia Airport (12-month period ending on 12/31/2015)
GA Local: 1
GA Itinerant: 6,344
Commercial: 309,563
Air Taxi: 52,950
Military: 316
October 9th, 2017 at 1:49:18 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 332
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Quote: Pacomartin
Mc Carran International Airport has a relatively large amount of GA activity for such a busy commercial airport (compared to Laguardia, LAX, SAN, ATL)


I can't tell you about other airports, but LAS is so very conveniently located, that it makes little sense for private flights to land elsewhere.

MEX is the same, but GA is barred from using it.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
October 9th, 2017 at 1:55:51 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 763
Posts: 9026
Quote: Nareed
I can't tell you about other airports, but LAS is so very conveniently located, that it makes little sense for private flights to land elsewhere.

MEX is the same, but GA is barred from using it.


North Las Vegas is 10 miles away from LAS. Henderson Executive Airport is 8 miles from LAS.

The FAA does not permit an airport to bar General Aviation from any USA airport.
October 9th, 2017 at 2:12:30 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 332
Posts: 11962
Quote: Pacomartin
North Las Vegas is 10 miles away from LAS. Henderson Executive Airport is 8 miles from LAS.


LAS is almost right on the Strip. Can't beat that. LAS is mostly a tourist destination. And I'd bet most business trips to Vegas are for conventions. So being almost right on the Strip with lots of ground transportation options (cabs, shuttles, bus, and now Uber) makes it very attractive.


Quote:
The FAA does not permit an airport to bar General Aviation from any USA airport.


To quote Adam Savage: "Well, there's your problem!"

Can they at least restrict operating hours for GA, or require filing a flight plan within X hours of arrival?
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
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