Will God Survive Science

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October 15th, 2017 at 10:56:23 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
It is so easy to fall into exaggerations in this discussion. For example I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for believing the world is round. The consistent take of the Catholic Church and I think Islam as well is that if God is the creator of the universe than by learning about the universe we are at the same time deepening our understanding of God. In fact the idea that the universe is intelligible and follows strict rules is a religious idea.

It is best to keep the goals of the two disciplines of the physical sciences and the higher sciences (philosophy, metaphysics, ethics, art, theology, etc.) in focus when discussing this. One is to observe and understand the physical universe we live in. The other is to ask why the universe exists and why do we live and move and have our being? The higher sciences can never go against the physical sciences and therefore the physical sciences in many ways form a foundation for the higher sciences to reach new heights of thought. This is the phenomenon you notice about science altering or shaping religious ideas. This is not a change in theology but rather a restatement of fundamental truths in the light of new knowledge gained by the sciences. It works the other way of course as well. You mentioned abortion. Science clearly confirms what many religious people have always felt that life begins at conception. You could also say the same thing about modern cosmology discovering an expanding universe. This is devastating for those like Evenbob who in spite of all the evidence desire to cling to an eternal universe.

The belief in God is not in any immediate or future danger, because it is truth. It is NOT a nice comfortable feeling, that is what a secular or materialistic belief system would like to give you.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 15th, 2017 at 12:38:41 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
the higher sciences (philosophy, metaphysics, ethics, art, theology, etc.)


Theology is a science? Please name some
of the provable and repeatable scientific
facts that make up this science. (clue: there
aren't any)

Quote:
The belief in God is not in any immediate or future danger, because it is truth. .


Prove this 'truth'. You can't and you
know you can't. God is the biggest
lie ever told.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 15th, 2017 at 1:21:22 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4459
Quote: FrGamble
It is so easy to fall into exaggerations in this discussion. For example I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated for believing the world is round. The consistent take of the Catholic Church and I think Islam as well is that if God is the creator of the universe than by learning about the universe we are at the same time deepening our understanding of God. In fact the idea that the universe is intelligible and follows strict rules is a religious idea.



What about Galileo and heliocentrism? Threatened with torture by the inquisition if he didn't give up his beliefs. I think that is close enough to prove the gist of my statement about pushback by the church when it's beliefs are challenged and science eventually changing the religious beliefs.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
October 15th, 2017 at 1:28:46 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Actually Galileo was not threatened with torture and heliocentrism was first proposed by a Catholic cleric. There were other circumstances and personalities involved in the Galileo case. It is not to say that the Church's response to him was innocent by a long shot. However this one example is not nearly enough to justify any idea that the Church was pushing back on science, especially considering that the greatest scientists and discoveries were made by people like Gregor Mendel, Copernicus, etc. Again we have to be careful about claims that scientific discoveries changed religious beliefs. Learning that the Earth revolves around the Sun doesn't change the religious belief that Earth is unique and holds a special place in creation.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 15th, 2017 at 2:56:55 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Learning that the Earth revolves around the Sun doesn't change the religious belief that Earth is unique and holds a special place in creation.


The human ego is a thing to behold. The
cockroach hiding in your kitchen is every
bit as noble and 'special' as you are, but
your huge inflated ego would never accept
it. Mores the pity..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 15th, 2017 at 3:55:28 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4459
Quote: FrGamble
Actually Galileo was not threatened with torture and heliocentrism was first proposed by a Catholic cleric. There were other circumstances and personalities involved in the Galileo case. It is not to say that the Church's response to him was innocent by a long shot. However this one example is not nearly enough to justify any idea that the Church was pushing back on science, especially considering that the greatest scientists and discoveries were made by people like Gregor Mendel, Copernicus, etc. Again we have to be careful about claims that scientific discoveries changed religious beliefs. Learning that the Earth revolves around the Sun doesn't change the religious belief that Earth is unique and holds a special place in creation.


So Padre that would mean you accept the fact that God didn't make the world and genisis is simply I fun story.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
October 15th, 2017 at 3:56:58 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Look at that, FrGamble just invented a new kind of science (Higher Science) and by the very name placed it in a more prominent and superior position to the "lesser sciences"
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 15th, 2017 at 4:11:12 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: kenarman
So Padre that would mean you accept the fact that God didn't make the world and genisis is simply I fun story.


No, of course God made the world. Heliocentrism is about the Earth orbiting the sun not the other way around. I don't think it speaks about if God created the universe.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 15th, 2017 at 5:05:54 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
Look at that, FrGamble just invented a new kind of science (Higher Science) and by the very name placed it in a more prominent and superior position to the "lesser sciences"


I didn't call them that, I think it refers to the fact that they don't depend of physical or worldly observations and testing. I also do not think that the physical sciences or any other kind of science are superior or lesser. Any pursuit of knowledge is important and needed by all the other different ways we discover truth.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 15th, 2017 at 5:19:54 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
I didn't call them that, I think it refers to the fact that they don't depend of physical or worldly observations and testing


Quote: FrGamble
It is best to keep the goals of the two disciplines of the physical sciences and the higher sciences (philosophy, metaphysics, ethics, art, theology, etc.) in focus when discussing this.


The things you listed as "higher science" are not science. It is art, philosophy, and religion.

You might as well have thrown "creation science" on to the list.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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