Will God Survive Science

October 16th, 2017 at 5:23:43 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
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Quote: FrGamble
A simpler and maybe easier way to say this is to not treat the Bible as a science textbook. It is not and never claims to be.


You are still missing the point.

If you are basing your beliefs on a story or stories, and those stories are shown to be untrue, then your beliefs are based on lies, or your beliefs are based on nothing.

What I think happened, though, is that the stories were based on beliefs, and then people based their beliefs on the stories. It is another way that the original beliefs were based on nothing but wishful thinking.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 16th, 2017 at 5:30:39 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
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Quote: FrGamble
Quote: Dalex64
Quote: FrGamble
It is best to keep the goals of the two disciplines of the physical sciences and the higher sciences (philosophy, metaphysics, ethics, art, theology, etc.) in focus when discussing this.


The things you listed as "higher science" are not science. It is art, philosophy, and religion.

You might as well have thrown "creation science" on to the list.


Sorry what I meant to say is that I didn't make up that term. I did call them that but I didn't come up with the distinction, if you find it offensive or degrading to the physical sciences I will happily refrain from using it.


Yes, don't call it science. It is an example of how religion is trying to co-opt the very word science to give their beliefs some legitimacy.

I did a web search for higher science and variations, and found several examples proclaiming what I said you were doing - trying to cast religious beliefs as science, and place them in a heirarchy in a position superior to actual science. That's just wrong. It is also an example of what we are talking about in this thread - using religion to try to control science and limit or deligitimize any findings which do not conform with their beliefs.

If you want to call that stuff science, you better be prepared to have that stuff stand up to the rigors of actual science.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 16th, 2017 at 6:28:15 AM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
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Quote: Evenbob
The human ego is a thing to behold. The
cockroach hiding in your kitchen is every
bit as noble and 'special' as you are, but
your huge inflated ego would never accept
it. Mores the pity..
Speak for yourself, rodent.
October 16th, 2017 at 6:38:08 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Dalex64

If you want to call that stuff science, you better be prepared to have that stuff stand up to the rigors of actual science.


I very much want every discipline that pursues truth to stand up to the rigors of questions, logic, testing, experience, study, examination, etc. I think that studying music and learning to play a musical instrument is a science and it is rigorous. Same thing with the study of history. Theology is extremely rigorous and needs to stand up to the rigors and discoveries of "actual science" (who is being pejorative now, by the way).

Again I call anything that strives to discover and explain truth as science. You would be very foolish to think only "actual science" does this.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 16th, 2017 at 6:41:39 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
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Quote: Dalex64
You are still missing the point.

If you are basing your beliefs on a story or stories, and those stories are shown to be untrue, then your beliefs are based on lies, or your beliefs are based on nothing.

What I think happened, though, is that the stories were based on beliefs, and then people based their beliefs on the stories. It is another way that the original beliefs were based on nothing but wishful thinking.


I am basing my beliefs on ideas. These ideas are based on observations, revelation, history, logic, and human experience.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 16th, 2017 at 7:22:57 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
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Quote: FrGamble
Again I call anything that strives to discover and explain truth as science. You would be very foolish to think only "actual science" does this.


Way too broad of a definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Philosophy and theology are separate, and you can't just throw them together when it is convenient to you (these things are science!) and at the same time discard them when it isn't convenient (science can't provide the answers to these questions!)
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 16th, 2017 at 7:31:32 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Expanding more on how religion is in a war/battle/conflict with science where the beliefs are in conflict,

In the United States, there are places where the theory of evolution is being removed from textbooks.

There are places where creationism is being taught as science.

There are places where creationism and evolution must be given equal time.

There are places where evolution isn't even allowed to be taught.

There are children who are being brought up with scientific knowledge suppressed, and being taught to believe things that conflict with their religious beliefs are wrong or false.

This is one of the things that is holding back science. Those who get past it have lost a childhood of scientific curiosity, and those that don't get past it try to hold their children and everyone else back.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
October 16th, 2017 at 1:12:28 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
Expanding more on how religion is in a war/battle/conflict with science where the beliefs are in conflict,

In the United States, there are places where the theory of evolution is being removed from textbooks.

There are places where creationism is being taught as science.

There are places where creationism and evolution must be given equal time.

There are places where evolution isn't even allowed to be taught.

There are children who are being brought up with scientific knowledge suppressed, and being taught to believe things that conflict with their religious beliefs are wrong or false.

This is one of the things that is holding back science. Those who get past it have lost a childhood of scientific curiosity, and those that don't get past it try to hold their children and everyone else back.


I'm curious where these places are because I agree that such things are a tragedy. Atheists do not have a monopoly on poor thinking, it is obvious from your examples if they are still true that religious people don't always think clearly either.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 16th, 2017 at 1:15:57 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
Way too broad of a definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Philosophy and theology are separate, and you can't just throw them together when it is convenient to you (these things are science!) and at the same time discard them when it isn't convenient (science can't provide the answers to these questions!)


The wikipedia definition doesn't see to fit philosophy or theology. The etymology of the word science however does seem to fit philosophy and theology.

Do you doubt that philosophy, theology, or even art and music do not seek after, find, and express knowledge in their unique ways?

Do you agree that the physical sciences have limitations on what knowledge they can seek after, find, and express?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 16th, 2017 at 1:28:50 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Dalex64
Philosophy and theology are separate, and you can't just throw them together when it is convenient to you (these things are science!) and at the same time discard them when it isn't convenient (science can't provide the answers to these questions!)


Theology is a branch of philosophy that thinks its the root, trunk, leaves and sun :)
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