Does Religion Make People Moral?

December 7th, 2017 at 6:18:08 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Evenbob, I'm still getting over the shock of your post about evil being in the eye of the beholder. I'm often flabbergasted by your thinking and saddened deeply by it.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 7th, 2017 at 6:24:29 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Evenbob, I'm still getting over the shock of your post about evil being in the eye of the beholder. I'm often flabbergasted by your thinking and saddened deeply by it.


But everything saddens you, so the emotion
is meaningless when you express it.

Of course evil is in the opinion of who is
experiencing the evil. From every tradgey
there is someone who benefits. There is
someone to whom it wasn't evil. In fact,
so called evil often ends in great rewards
for certain people along the line. One
persons evil can be another persons windfall.

Makes evil very hard to pin down, it's a moving
target, like morality. Sad, huh. (lol)
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 7th, 2017 at 6:58:37 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
So because slavery benefited some people it was only a evil to the slave but it was a good thing for the master. Is that really what you are saying? You think funeral directors think drunk driving is a good thing because it gives them more business? Is the morality of an act only dependent on if it benefits you or someone else? This is beyond sad, it is frightening that a grown person would think this.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 7th, 2017 at 7:34:09 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: FrGamble
I don't think this is true. There is no circumstance for example that would make it moral to kill an innocent person. Some people would point to war as a circumstance that makes killing the innocent moral, but nobody really holds to this. It may be an unavoidable consequence of war but in war if you purposely sought ways to kill the innocent you would be immoral and a war criminal.

The other danger of this idea of morality is determining who decides what circumstance would make an evil act a good one? If it is you yourself who determine that because of my unique circumstance I can kill this innocent person it is dangerous relativism and I become the arbiter of what is right or wrong. If you place society as the judge of when circumstances make a normally immoral act moral you end up with things like slavery.

An act simply cannot become moral in one circumstance and immoral in another. In a similar way an immoral act cannot become a moral act based on the ends it achieves. The ends do not justify the means.


I do think this is true. Here's one example, but not the only one.

In the movie The Big Chill, the Mary Kay Place character has decided she will not find a life partner in time to have a healthy baby, (they're all abiut 40) so she has come to the reunion with the goal of asking the best men she's ever known if one of them will help her make a baby. All but one turn her down for various reasons, not without regret. She's not asking for sex, more just a sperm donor.

The last one, the Kevin Kline character, she didn't ask, because he's married to her closest friend, Glenn Close, and is the only currently married man among them. She respects the sanctity of marriage, and would never ask.

She tells Glenn what has happened, and Glenn offers the services of Kevin if he is willing, which he is. She also insists they have intercourse rather than insemination, because it's loving, natural, and has the best chance of success. She also makes it clear that they should continue relations until pregnancy occurs, without stress or fear.

If a man screws his wife's best friend, it's immoral, and proscribed by the Commandments. But in this situation, for this purpose, the exact same act is not only moral, it's noble, a gift from a couple with happy, healthy children, helping someone they love to find the same happiness in having a family.

There was a point in my life when this nearly happened to me. It never quite did, but I would have been completely comfortable with the idea.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
December 7th, 2017 at 8:01:56 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
So because slavery benefited some people it was only a evil to the slave but it was a good thing for the master..


Bingo. You think slave owners cried themselves
to sleep at night over owning slaves? Hell no,
they plotted how to buy even more of them.
You think the slave owners were conflicted as
they spent their whole lives owning other
humans? You think Jesus or Paul or any of those
guys ever spent one minute agonizing over slavery?

If they did, where is it in the NT? Please point out
the places where Jesus condemns slavery, I missed
them when I read the Bible. It's such a big 'sin',
surely he spoke about it a lot.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 7th, 2017 at 8:12:06 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Jesus' entire preaching was against slavery. You can't read the Gospels in its entirety or the letters from St. Paul, including the one asking a slave master to free his slave, and with a serious face say that it is not condemning slavery.

What I would like you to address further is if slavery in your mind is an evil? Just because a slave owner benefited do you think they were doing a good and moral thing. I get that you are misreading the ancient scriptures. What I want to know is am I misreading the post you made just a few minutes ago? Do you right now think that the evil of slavery just depends on which side of the whip you were on?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 7th, 2017 at 8:21:24 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Babs, I will say that the situation you describe has a surprising amount of Biblical support for it.

I am in no position to judge, but Babs story and reflecting on my own life made me think that one of the motivations for immorality seems often to come from a refusal to accept reality. We all have our strong desires and passions and when they aren't met or when life doesn't turn out the way we want we are willing and able to justify just about any behavior to get what we want. I don't know if this is really the best solution. I think we can find much more happiness in accepting reality and focusing on our blessings and not our wants or difficulties. The thing about these stories like Babs relays and the many stories just like it in the Bible, they don't usually work out in the long run. What we have always wanted turns out to not be the perfect dream we were hoping it would be. If we would have dealt with the reality of our lives and accepted it we might be in a better place with unexpected blessings and peace with who we are.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 7th, 2017 at 9:02:59 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Jesus' entire preaching was against slavery.


Give an example of Jesus speaking to
a slave owner to free his slaves and
I'll believe you. Quote a passage where
Jesus condemns slavery, there must
be many if his 'entire preaching'
was against it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 7th, 2017 at 9:37:22 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Come on Bob, I know what Jesus taught and you are just going to make fun of and deny anything I say. I am more curious about what you Bob believe about the morality of slavery. Stop playing games and answer my challenge to you about your scandalous posts about slavery!
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 7th, 2017 at 10:26:05 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Love your neighbor as you love yourself. !


You said Jesus whole teaching was about
slavery, but the truth is he never talked
about it at all. That's because he obviously
accepted and condoned it, as did most
people in those days. It wasn't considered
evil by Jesus or anybody else, it was a
daily part of life and wasn't questioned.
Why would it be, it made perfect sense
in that era. Evil and morality are moving
targets, admit it. You can't nail them down.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.