Does Religion Make People Moral?

Quote: FrGamble

Evenbob, I'm still getting over the shock of your post about evil being in the eye of the beholder. I'm often flabbergasted by your thinking and saddened deeply by it.

Evil is in the eye of the beholder, as is good.

The Big Chill's Biological Clock scenario would probably be condemned by the clergy but does the clergy condemn Israel's laws that to this day allow slavery? Slavery in the Cocoa trade is allowed, India and Pakistan have inherited debt slavery, Arabia constructs all those skyscrapers with wage slaves, the seas are full of fishing boats with captive crewmen.

DUI enforcement keeps bartenders, petit criminals and loads of lawyers, cops and judges employed. Zillions of traffic tickets don't make the roads anywhere near as safe as some can of spray paint would, but tickets support the court system.

Quote: Evenbob

Evil and morality are moving
targets, admit it. You can't nail them down.

It is good to know that you think slavery can be a good thing. Since rape and genocide benefit some people I imagine you also think that these are good things as well. Are you running for the senate?

Quote: FrGamble

It is good to know that you think slavery can be a good thing.

Did I say that? But obviously Jesus
never thought it was a bad thing,
he never said a word about it. Don't
you find that disturbing and odd?
Could it be because it was the accepted
practice of his day, that Jesus found
no fault in it at all? That's obviously
the case, he certainly had ample
opportunity to speak out about it.

Yet this won't bother you at all, you'll
find some convoluted way to rationalize
it, you Church people are masters of
that. Denial and rationalization,
whatever works to keep you on the moral
high ground.

All I know is that Jesus never called slavery or any evil act that benefits another a good thing. In fact he said that whatever you do to the least of people you do to Him.

Quote: FrGamble

Jesus' entire preaching was against slavery. You can't read the Gospels in its entirety or the letters from St. Paul, including the one asking a slave master to free his slave, and with a serious face say that it is not condemning slavery

And it worked so well, Christian civilization took only 2,000 years to rid itself of slavery. Good job!

Quote: Fleastiff

Evil is in the eye of the beholder, as is good.

The Big Chill's Biological Clock scenario would probably be condemned by the clergy but does the clergy condemn Israel's laws that to this day allow slavery? Slavery in the Cocoa trade is allowed, India and Pakistan have inherited debt slavery, Arabia constructs all those skyscrapers with wage slaves, the seas are full of fishing boats with captive crewmen.

DUI enforcement keeps bartenders, petit criminals and loads of lawyers, cops and judges employed. Zillions of traffic tickets don't make the roads anywhere near as safe as some can of spray paint would, but tickets support the court system.

Thanks for the response, Fleastiff, but we might as well be cutting water with knives as try to join this conversation, it would seem. I cede the thread.

Quote: FrGamble

Yet another thing we agree on and I don't think Aquinas would disagree with you either.

If you claim to agree, why do you insist on reducing everything, no matter how complex or nuanced, to "sin"?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Thanks for the response, Fleastiff, but we might as well be cutting water with knives as try to join this conversation, it would seem. I cede the thread.

Please don't leave me alone here with Evenbob! I did respond to your thoughtful post and would love to hear more of your thoughts!

Quote: Nareed

If you claim to agree, why do you insist on reducing everything, no matter how complex or nuanced, to "sin"?

Because sin itself is a complex and nuanced word. There can be venial sin or mortal sin. The culpability of sinful actions can be mitigated or completely removed.

Quote: FrGamble

Because sin itself is a complex and nuanced word.

It's actually a made up non word
that religious types use to judge
people and put them in their
place. Actual sin, an offense against
a god, doesn't exist because there
is no god to offend.

Quote:

All I know is that Jesus never called slavery or any evil act that benefits another a good thing.

He had comments on so many other
things. Yet a true violation of human
rights, like slavery, he was totally silent
on. This obviously tells us Jesus was
cool with slavery and didn't consider
it evil at all.

You know I'm right, but this flies in the
face of all the ridiculous claims you have
to make about Jesus, so you gloss it
over and hope nobody notices. Jesus
was just a flawed man like everybody
else, he was as much a 'son of a god' as
anybody else, i.e., not at all.