Does Religion Make People Moral?

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December 1st, 2017 at 12:26:20 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 56
Posts: 6192
Quote: Wizard
Not the same god, apparently, as the one of the Old Testament. Chapter 21 of Exodus is all about the rules governing slavery.


Are you talking about the same book of the Bible whose main theme is the freedom of slaves and the immorality of slavery. It seems strange that one would focus on a chapter and not see the entire theme of the book and for that matter the Bible. It is like missing the forest for the tree.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 1st, 2017 at 12:32:38 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 56
Posts: 6192
Quote: Evenbob
The Bible loves slaves,


Only in the sense that Jesus, Paul, and the other disciples call themselves slaves to God and are called to sacrificially serve others.

You will find many places in the Scriptures where slavery is condemned. Arguably the most important event in the Bible is the freedom from slavery of the Israelites. This Passover event is what Jesus uses to explain the ultimate freedom from the slavery of sin and death through His death and Resurrection. Other places Paul says that in Christ there is no male or female, free or slave. He writes an entire book to encourage someone to treat his former slave as a brother.

Quote:
Christians will say it was a 'different' slavery
then.


This is not Christians who say this but history.

Quote:
Half the people
crucified (or more) were runaway slaves
that were caught , and as an example
were hung on croses for other slaves
to see.


This is ridiculous and again history proves you wrong and foolish. Cite your sources when you make such statements please.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 1st, 2017 at 12:41:13 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 56
Posts: 6192
Quote: beachbumbabs
FrG.

If you have spoken of this before, I missed it. I also have trouble reconciling the OT God with the NT God.

Do you think that God Him/Herself changed with the coming of Christ? Did He, perhaps, learn mercy, grace, or tolerance? Did He, perhaps, just step back and let the Son take over the family business? How do you, as a priest in lifelong study of the subject, explain or understand the change in immediacy, the ceasing of direct retribution for sins, as he had in the past with the Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, Job, Jonah, Elijah, Pharaoh, and many others?

Genuinely want to know. Not trolling you.


Thanks for the good question.

The God in the OT is the same as the God in the NT. It is not God who is changing but ourselves. Their is a divine pedagogy at work here. Taking a people that only knew violence and retribution slowly revealing the inadequacy and immorality of such things. It is like a good teacher who starts teaching math where the students are at. To jump into calculus is meaningless. To first learn addition and then multiplication tables is the only way someone will learn.

With Jesus Christ we find that He took on all of our sins for all time. Such was His ultimate sacrifice. Being God He is the only one who could both fulfill God's requirement for perfect justice and God's perfect merciful love. He alone can take all of our sins and overcome them. Therefore in the new and everlasting covenant established with all of us through Jesus Christ there is no immediate punishment for sins, as the Lord has already taken them upon Himself on the cross and forgiven them. Our salvation therefore has moved from the impossibility of following the law to perfection and now only depends on a loving relationship with Jesus, our Savior, and others. This makes salvation not only possible but based on something we all long for and desire - a loving relationship.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 1st, 2017 at 12:43:20 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 56
Posts: 6192
Quote: Mosca

There rises a new question, though, and that is the relativism of morality, brought up by Fr Gamble. And this question, too, transcends religion. If morality is defined as what is best for society, then when society changes, morality changes. Like the treatment of slaves... even within Christianity, morality is relative to society!


Morality does not change, it is grounded in something beyond us. Slavery was never and never will be a moral or good thing. Just like rape and the murder of innocents. These are moral laws that do not come from us but from something unchanging, beyond society, namely God.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 1st, 2017 at 12:43:56 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 56
Posts: 6192
Quote: FrGamble
Morality does not change, it is grounded in something beyond us. Slavery (edit: as we understand it in the modern context) was never and never will be a moral or good thing. Just like rape and the murder of innocents. These are moral laws that do not come from us but from something unchanging, beyond society, namely God.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 1st, 2017 at 12:53:43 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 345
Posts: 12534
Quote: FrGamble
Arguably the most important event in the Bible is the freedom from slavery of the Israelites.


I think you should re-read the part about beams, motes and eyes.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
December 1st, 2017 at 12:55:20 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 345
Posts: 12534
Quote: FrGamble
Morality does not change, it is grounded in something beyond us.


So you do keep torturing witches, heretics and infidels before you burn them at the stake?

I really thought that was no longer common practice in your organization, and quite frankly I'm not pleased at all to know it still goes on.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
December 1st, 2017 at 1:06:11 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 118
Posts: 14593
Quote: FrGamble
This is ridiculous and again history proves you wrong and foolish..


Really? This is a very interesting article/post and
I hope you read the whole thing.

"Crucifixion was not invented by the Romans, but they used it a lot. It was thought of as the most horrible, painful, tortuous, and humiliating form of execution possible. If Romans wanted simply to kill someone without a fuss, there were plenty of other means available – for example, beheading. Crucifixion was reserved for special cases.
But there were lots of special cases. Two of the most common were low-life criminals and enemies of the state. These are two very different matters – they are not the same thing. Low life criminals would include, for example, slaves who had escaped from their masters and committed a crime. If caught, a slave could be crucified. There were two reasons they were subjected to such a tortuous, slow, and humiliating death. They were receiving the “ultimate” punishment for their crime and, possibly more important, they were being used as a spectacle to warn any other slaves who was thinking about escaping or committing crimes what could happen to *them*.

https://ehrmanblog.org/why-romans-crucified-people/
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 1st, 2017 at 1:58:56 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 56
Posts: 6192
Quote: Nareed
So you do keep torturing witches, heretics and infidels before you burn them at the stake?

I really thought that was no longer common practice in your organization, and quite frankly I'm not pleased at all to know it still goes on.


I never have done any of the things you mentioned. It was also never a common practice in the Church and our saints and other holy men and women constantly preach against it. It does go on still in modern ways but the Catholic Church, Christians, or others considered infidels are the victims.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 2nd, 2017 at 7:18:39 AM permalink
Mosca
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 20
Posts: 499
Quote: FrGamble
Quote: Nareed
So you do keep torturing witches, heretics and infidels before you burn them at the stake?

I really thought that was no longer common practice in your organization, and quite frankly I'm not pleased at all to know it still goes on.


I never have done any of the things you mentioned. It was also never a common practice in the Church and our saints and other holy men and women constantly preach against it. It does go on still in modern ways but the Catholic Church, Christians, or others considered infidels are the victims.


You are thinking of yourself, and your own branch of Christianity. To this day there are people using Christianity to justify racial dominance and slavery. And while not race related, in Ireland Catholics and Protestants fought for years rather than listen to what their god preached.

That is the whole point of the article, that being religious does not make someone moral: they will bend their religion to justify their beliefs rather than alter their beliefs to fit what their religion preaches.
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