Am I an agnostic or an atheist?

TheCessPit stole most of my thunder, but what the hell, I’ll jump in anyway.

I always looked at the distinction between the two as basically a matter of degree, with atheism being more extreme. Based on the number of god-talks on WoV in the past, I’d consider you atheist. A curious atheist, but atheist nonetheless.

What I don’t get, AZ, is your prejudice. It’s a little too Logan-like. There a certainly those atheists who are asshats, I especially don’t care for the hyper-sensitive versions i.e. those who freak over the Pledge of Allegiance and other such nonsense. Similarly, there are theists who are just as bad. I’ll never forget the holy man who told me I was going to hell as I left what was then Rich Stadium, simply because I dared to go to a football game on the Sabbath. The idiocy exists on both sides of the fence.

You and I agree on many things and disagree on just about as many. But if I was able to accept your offer of joining you last time you were here in Allegany, I think we would’ve had a good time. We certainly get along fine here on DT and WoV. Same goes for FrG. We are complete opposites, black to the white, yin to the yang. He and I have had long, in depth debates on religion ever since he joined, and always from severely opposing viewpoints. But we still have common ground, still have many of the same values. We’re still able to enjoy talk of fishing, guns, hell, the guy prayed for me during my divorce, and I accepted it with thanks. On one hand, he may think I’m going to hell. On the other hand, he thinks I have done good work and has said so. In the end, I’d call him a friend.

When I go to a NASCAR race in the Bible Belt and the good father gives his invocation, I don’t pray along. It just doesn’t feel right. But I surely remove my hat and shut my yap. Same goes for the Pledge, I say “under God” because that’s the Pledge. It doesn’t harm me nor affect my beliefs. I’d say many of those who share my beliefs, many who you know here, are the same. Just as I don’t let the Westboro Baptist wastes of life affect my view of you or FrG, neither should you let the fringe nutbag atheists shut you off from a whole group of people.

Quote: AZDuffman

Here is a question on that. I knew an atheist once who stated that a religious schol group should not even have the right to use the school facilities for meetings same as any other group. My reply was they paid the same taxes so should have same right as say the chess club to use facilities. I know the scotus said they do but out of curiosity what say you?

If the religious group is meeting outside of school hours, no problem by me. Just like Scouts or the Airplane model enthusiasts.

I don't really have a problem with a Christian group advertising within the school either, as long as that right is afforded to all other groups. I personally don't think it should be part of the school syllabus, though, any more than the SCA should be part of the school syllabus.

Quote: Face

Similarly, there are theists who are just as bad. I’ll never forget the holy man who told me I was going to hell as I left what was then Rich Stadium, simply because I dared to go to a football game on the Sabbath. The idiocy exists on both sides of the fence.

You think that's bad? How about those who would deny the civil rights of other people on religious grounds? That's really bad. How about thsoe who would introduce religious indoctrination in schools under the guise of "science"? That's also really bad. And let's not even talk about those who'd regulate reproduction to suit their sueprstitions. Those are much worse.

Thanks for all the comments thus far.

Quote: AZDuffman

Religion will anthropogically pop up in most societies. This is something they take offense to. If you find such offense consider yourself an atheist. I don't think you do.

I don't take offense at it. One sees it in casinos all the time, people looking for some explanation other than chance as to why they won or lost. We are significance junkies. Religion is a convenient answer to all of life's toughest questions.

Rather than looking at this question as do I believe in a god or gods, athiest or agnostic or whatnot, consider the process by which you conduct your belief itself.

I apply the same process to deciding what I've accepted as fact, supposition or wishful thinking. For instance, life on Mars still falls into wishful thinking. There is still no life on Mars. A religious-like view would extend to already believing I can take the extra step and start declaring life on Mars before actual life on Mars is found (whether it's ever found). This is a step too far.

Now maybe it wouldn't be so terrible to take the extra step if that was all there was to it and say it's there but we've just not found the evidence. But religion almost always goes beyond that and dictates that communication is coming back from my wishful thought. That I would be recieving messages from Martian life that we still haven't found. And that's the level that religion and belief usually reaches. I can easily reject that.

It certainly would be a lot more difficult to believe in a God if we lacked an imagination completely. If we had no imagination, we would be limited to what can be seen, felt and calculated. Just the same way we are unable to even think what the extra dimensions would look like, because we are incapable of processing them. One fact remains is it is impossible to completely understand the entire universe due to restraints of size and energy, because we are within the universe and cannot escape it. Even if you could build the absolute best computer even possible, it could not be God knowing everything. It could know a lot, but not everything unless it existed outside the universe.

I find it ironic so many scientist believe in infinite, alternate universes, but not God. If there were infinite, alternate universes, there would have to be one universe where there was a God which could have absolute power over the rest. I explained this to a friend who is a die-hard atheist and he funnily came to the conclusion there could not be alternate universes, because there is no God. Anyways, I just find it funny how religious some people can be who do not believe in God, but believe in things they have no proof for such as the alternate universe theory. If God existed outside our universe, how in the hell could we prove it without being able to leave our universe?

Believing there is no God is the easiest answer, because we can all agree there is no proof for it. If there was proof there would be no question. Obviously we are limited to just believing based on faith, because the evidence will never be there. It is just how the universe is. We just have an infinite number of questions to ask and no way to answer them all.

Ghost caught on tape?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbfhpsVI2qY

I must go to sleep NOW before this thread gets me all riled up..

I continue to oppose the idea, even from theists, that religious faith is a convienent answer, wishful thinking, or just blind acceptance. Faith is a reasonable decision based on evidence. It is also a decision that is made naturally through a convergance of many different pieces of information available to us through our senses, intellect, and understanding. I think what people often complain about is that there is no proverbial smoking gun type of irrefutable evidence. However how many court cases are decided one way or the other without such concrete evidence?

I think we hold belief in God to an unrealistic standard that we do not do to any other type of decision we make. When we marry someone we love we cannot and do not have evidence that this person will be faithful and loving for the rest of our lives, yet we marry joyfully. When I choose a vocation or career path I am not guaranteed that this will ultimately bring me happiness, but with conviction and courage I make the decision. I am not sure the driver will stop at the red light, yet I reasonably proceed.

I gotta say I love Face and his posts are awesome! I'm glad he considers me a friend and right back at him.

p.s. I don't think Face is going to Hell, however a few extra days in Purgatory never hurt anyone.