Am I an agnostic or an atheist?

Quote: 1nickelmiracle

I find it ironic so many scientist believe in infinite, alternate universes, but not God.

Here's another way to try to illustrate what I was trying to say. Do any of them believe that the alternate universe has sent them 10 commandments which were written down in this Universe?

That's religious belief.

That goes way over the line of two people discussing whether god or gods should or should not logically exist.

I do draw one line. For instance if you suggest something, at least try to provide fodder for some circumstancal evidence before you suggest something is possible. Otherwise we can discuss an endless line of possibilities based on the limits of imagination.

Quote: FrGamble

I think we hold belief in God to an unrealistic standard that we do not do to any other type of decision we make. When we marry someone we love we cannot and do not have evidence that this person will be faithful and loving for the rest of our lives, yet we marry joyfully.

It's about a 50% coinflip it won't end in divorce. Now I admit, if I marry a 2000 year old dead guy (bride of the Church), how is he going to disapoint me? We've already started with a really low bar. He doesn't even materialize, or leave dirty socks on the floor even one day of our entire marriage. I contend that the situation is not identical to marriage.

There will never be proof for God is the point. If you're waiting for it, you'll wait until the day you die. If someone says they believe in God and there is no proof for a God besides what they feel, I see nothing wrong with that. I keep referring to the fact human beings are not logical beings, but the point keeps being ignored. We do not act just on logic and are not meant to. If someone thinks they are Vulcan, they are delusional.

Quote: 1nickelmiracle

I have basically admitted I am agnostic rxwine, so either way is fine. I just make a point there is not proof for God and there never will be. It is up to you and what is in your heart. If you're waiting for proof, there never will be and will not get extra credit pointing it out. Knowing there is no proof is the easy answer part of the equation. Does love exist? There is no evidence for that either.

Oxytocin?

But belief in extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence (look at all the investment in trying to resovle Higgs-Boson for instance)

But this kind of belief is also important because it often comes down to important decisions like "Should we worship Pharoah as God" Because if a lot of people start worshiping Pharoah it's probably going to have a severe impact on my life too. So, to keep questioning what are limits of belief is important, and where to draw a line can be important.

Obviously this is difficult as I had to rewrite. Go either way you want to, I don't care. I am not in the camp to pretend to be God by limiting your freedoms.

Quote: FrGamble

p.s. I don't think Face is going to Hell, however a few extra days in Purgatory never hurt anyone.

I appreciate it...kind of lol.

See, that's the strange thing in all of this, and bear with me on my limited religious knowledge. Being unbaptized, it was my understanding that your belief system decrees I will spend eternity in Limbo, Limbo being a place of nothingness on the border of Hell. That, of course, sounds terrible. Maybe even worse than Hell itself. I mean, even stinging sulfur air, torment, and burning is at least stimulus. Nothingness, I'd think, would destroy even the strongest of spirits.

I remember having a similar discussion before, and recall you saying the idea of Limbo has been kind of abandoned. Fair enough. But even Purgatory, as far as I know, is little more than a holding pen where souls are confined and tormented before their eventual admittance in Heaven. Again, for someone who feels they are more or less righteous, it sounds a pretty poor reward. Almost insulting.

And then there's scripture like Matthew 10:33 - "But whosoever shall deny me before men will I also deny before my Father which is heaven". I think it pretty much says that since I deny Jesus as God, I am destined for not Limbo nor Purgatory, I'm going straight to Hell. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

That used to really bug me, and by bug me I mean really piss me off. I could never figure out how someone who knew me, or even those that didn't, could dare say something like that. And that's where things, I feel, get really weird.

Look at how much emotion this subject brings out. When you have two opposing sides on this topic, it seems almost impossible to go more than a page of posts before it gets really negative. Isn't that interesting? If you as a believer thinks that something undeniably unpleasant is going to happen to me, yet I have no belief in that whatsoever, why would I feel offended? I mean, let's switch to 100% facts for a moment. Wiz and I get along just fine, both here and in real life. I've met him twice, had pleasant conversation, talk on here, it's all good. I likewise consider him a friend. We all know he is big on non-smoking. I happen to smoke. I can say without a doubt that if asked, he would believe that eventually I am going to suffer possibly one of the most horrible deaths known to man as a result of this habit. And unlike religion, he has undeniable proof. And his belief... it doesn't bother me. Many of my non-smoking friends, especially my hockey teammates, will look at me in distaste and comment "that shit's gonna kill you", and I kind of shrug and agree, and then it's over without another thought. But someone tells me I'm going to Hell, a claim that has no proof and that I don't believe, and suddenly it's offensive?

It's a very weird thing, this religion talk. Atheist, Theist, or Polytheist, I can't help but to always get involved. It's completely fascinating.

I'm an atheist, but I don't fret about it much. I love some amazing religious people. They love me. I've seen faith allow people to do wonderful things, and horrible things. I've seen the lack of faith allow people to do wonderful things and horrible things.

My take on it is that I really fall right down the Christian line on how to live; but Jesus was not the son of god. Ergo, not a Christian. Oh well.

You are right Face that the Church does not and never has offically taught Limbo. St. Augustine first proposed it as an answer to a theological quandry that we don't need to go into because I think it would lead us away from your main point. Even a discussion on Purgatory could take us off on a different tangent, so let me just clear up that Purgatory is a good place, I hope to get there some day. It is not a holding pen for Heaven but more like the mudroom. You know that place where you come into your house after hunting and fishing and you shed all your dirty clothes and kick off the muddy shoes, that is like experiencing purgatory so you are ready and clean to go into the house and hug your loved ones.

Anyway, I think it is easy to shrug off someone who tells you smoking kills (it does by the way and you should stop) because it doesn't have the eternal consequences attached to it. The effects of smoking will eventually not matter any longer, however there are some who claim you will still be smoking literally even after death, that can piss you off. It should. The fact that is does bother you is more proof that purgatory is the place for you and me. There is a hell and the evidence of it is the awful and destructive feelings and effects of sin we experience in this life. We don't want to experiecne those tortures that come in this life when we lie, cheat, steal, etc. forever, so we live a righteous life like you do. Be assured there is salvation in that.

Quote: FrGamble

There is a hell and the evidence of it is the awful and destructive feelings and effects of sin we experience in this life.

That makes less sense than me saying the there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster and the evidence for it are the pirates off of the Somalian coast.

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, I think it is easy to shrug off someone who tells you smoking kills (it does by the way and you should stop) because it doesn't have the eternal consequences attached to it.

See, that’s the thing. I’m going to ask the impossible and ask you to try to detach for a moment. Don’t be “FrGamble”, just try to be “Gamble” (I know, impossible =p). For me, as an atheist, there is no “eternity” in the way you believe. My belief is as strong as yours and came from the same place – I took in the information around me a came to this conclusion. Both head and heart, I don’t feel the tug of the all powerful. For me, this is it. Me, right here, right now, is all there is and all there ever will be.

To tell me or threaten me that it will end, as those who gripe about my smoking do, should be very upsetting to me indeed. I mean, this short 60-80 year span is all I’ve got, in my eyes. But strangely, it doesn’t, at least not to the level “God-talk” used to upset me.

I just find it strange, I guess. And I suppose this isn’t so much a “religious” discussion, but rather an observation on the human condition.

Every time I bring this up, it usually devolves the discussion right quick. Someone will always observe that it’s because we’re talking about “beliefs”, and it’s a sensitive subject. Then the floodgates open and someone will take a jab with “yeah, because the Bible thumpers can’t deal without their God-daddy crutch”, followed by the immediate riposte of “no, because the heathens want to be homo’s and bathe in sin without consequence”, and my question gets buried in the ensuing din. Hopefully since I pointed it out, it won’t happen here.

But even that answer of “because it’s beliefs” doesn’t jive. I mean, yeah, I have my beliefs, but I’m not threatened by those of others, nor am I scared that I’m wrong. If God exists and I go to Heaven, great. If I’m stuck in purgatory for an eon or two, I’m sure Wiz will keep us non-believers entertained with trivia contests. If the Druids and Buddhist are right, then I’ll come back as something else and it’s whatever. Even if I go to Hell, it’s gotta be better than NY (at least I won’t be cold ;)). And if I’m right, then there’s simply darkness. Whatever happens, I’m alright with it.

So why do we get upset with it? That interests me greatly. Sometimes it’s easy to say why, but in other cases, it’s completely beyond me.

Sorry for the derail, but sometimes things stick deeply into my brain and I have to kind of work them back out again. This is me trying to remove a thorn =p

When we are talking about God and life after death we are discussing the most important issues we can face as human beings. The answers we hold often color everything else we believe, say, or do. It is a good thing to wrestle with them. I don't know and am just guessing here, but maybe you are not as okay with "simple darkness" as you think? You have such a beautiful way of enjoying this life and expressing it through your writing, I think it is only natural for you to look around you and feel a tug for something more or a desire to enjoy fishing a little more than 70 years. Even just as "Gamble" I think we as humans beings should dare to hope that there is something more. We are too awesome and this world too intriguing in my mind for this to be it.

Now I know this can be quickly dismissed as wishful thinking and others will come down hard and say things like Col. Jessup, "You can't handle the truth!" I should wake up and realize we are all just worm food and the universe and everything will eventually just be meaningless dust. This gets me upset and I don't know why either. So if you can help me overcome my angst with eventual nothingness I will try to offer anything I can to help you overcome those strong emotions you feel when thinking about the possibilities of eternal life.