Am I an agnostic or an atheist?

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that you often feel bad or good is clear evidence that there is a moral law outside of yourself that you are bidden to obey whether you like it or not.

Baloney. If that were true the prisons
would be empty. What's clearly evident
is as a society we have rules for living
together and teach it to our kids.

Remember the cannibalistic tribes
in England? Their morality said it was
fine to eat a stranger for dinner. They
slept very well that night with a full
stomach and the universe could care
less.

I don't understand your comment about jail? Are you saying that there is no moral law higher than yourself?

About those cannabals you can ask yourself a simple question. Given the option of plenty of good food vs the continued killing and eating of innocent people what would they choose?

Quote: FrGamble

About those cannabals you can ask yourself a simple question. Given the option of plenty of good food vs the continued killing and eating of innocent people what would they choose?

So you're saying morality is adaptable to your
circumstances? If you're starving it's OK to eat
people? I agree. Morality comes from you, not
from the outside. Morality doesn't permeate
the universe, waiting to be 'discovered'.

What I'm trying to say is that cannibalism and murder are always wrong. Circumstances can make such evil understandable, but we still feel bad about it and given a choice we will always want to do what is right. Hope that is a little more clear.

Quote: FrGamble

About those cannabals you can ask yourself a simple question. Given the option of plenty of good food vs the continued killing and eating of innocent people what would they choose?

http://newobserveronline.com/cannibalism-still-stalks-african-conflicts/

Apparently they choose to eat human flesh.

Also cannibalism isn't always about getting the protein, it is about control. Just as rape isn't usually about sex, it is about domination.

Quote: FrGamble

but we still feel bad about it and given a choice we will always want to do what is right.

Not really. War has always been a religious
excuse to rape, murder and pillage. Christian
soldiers were given medals for atrocities
they committed in wars, and they performed
them with relish. Men went to war willingly
and with gusto, knowing they could put aside,
at least for awhile, what was the 'right' thing
to do, and kill and rape and steal
with the full blessing of whatever church
they belonged to. The victors didn't go home
weeping at what they done, they went home
with spoils and stories and their heads held
high.

You are making no sense and your knowledge of history is so perverted and twisted as to not be worthy of response. You also don't seem to have a sense of human nature and the desire we have for doing good and the shame we feel for doing wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

You are making no sense and your knowledge of history is so perverted .

Nope. The rules of morality were suspended in
war. Where do you think the Geneva Conventions
eventually came from? Why do you think they
were needed if wars were so ethical and moralistic?
Religious wars especially.

'The Geneva Conventions are rules that apply in times of armed conflict and seek to protect people who are not or are no longer taking part in hostilities; these include the sick and wounded of armed forces on the field, wounded, sick, and shipwrecked members of armed forces at sea, prisoners of war, and civilians.'

As John Paul II said, "War is always a failure of humanity." The fact that even in the midst of war we expect human beings to still follow the moral laws is clearly evidence that even when we so radically fail as society and engage in war, we are still subject to a moral law that is above and beyond us.

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that even in the midst of war we expect human beings to still follow the moral laws is clearly evidence .

It's evidence that we are evolving as a
society. We can no longer have the Holy
See, for instance, hiring mercenaries
to do their dirty work in Crusades.
Those were interesting
times for the Church. These hired savages
would be blessed personally by a high
member of the Church and given a holy
exemption to do whatever they wanted
to whoever they wanted, as long as it
was in the name of Jesus.

They're still looking at the aftermath of this
in the Muslim attitude towards the Church
today. They indeed have a lonnnnnng memory
of the atrocities done to them by the Church.

Nice, huh.