Is math natural or synthetic?

Isn't it amazing that we live in a universe that can be so beautifully expressed by mathematics? It seems as if the universe was designed and is surely without a doubt not random.

Quote: FrGamble

Isn't it amazing that we live in a universe that can be so beautifully expressed by mathematics? It seems as if the universe was designed and is surely without a doubt not random.

I think you have that backwards Padre. Mathematics was defined by the universe as man tried to understand it.

Quote: FrGamble

It seems as if the universe was designed and is surely without a doubt not random.

Or are we just seeing such a small sample that it appears not to be random Kind of like flipping a coin ten times and it comes up heads each time. Is the coin not random or is the sample too small?

Quote: kenarman

I think you have that backwards Padre. Mathematics was defined by the universe as man tried to understand it.

The whole religion is backwards. Their idea
of science is trying to make everything
fit into their limited views, then blame
everything on a god they made up.

Quote: DRich

Or are we just seeing such a small sample that it appears not to be random

Looks pretty dang random to me.
We're surrounded by randomness.
The trees in the forest, the mountain
ranges, the waves crashing on the
beach, all random. The stars in the
sky, all random.

Quote: Evenbob

Looks pretty dang random to me.
We're surrounded by randomness.
The trees in the forest, the mountain
ranges, the waves crashing on the
beach, all random. The stars in the
sky, all random.

Nothing you just listed acts random at all. We know from a seed what exactly will grow, we know the tides and when and why the waves come and go, the stars move to our exact calculations and we know right where they are and where they will be. Everything is so orderly, what do you see that is random?

Quote: FrGamble

Nothing you just listed acts random at all. We know from a seed what exactly will grow, we know the tides and when and why the waves come and go, the stars move to our exact calculations and we know right where they are and where they will be. Everything is so orderly, what do you see that is random?

This begs the question, "is anything really random?" And "is random possible?"

We have all surely heard that it is impossible for humans to create truly random numbers. Any computer program will have to have some kind of pattern. It might be a billion trials, but a pattern will emerge. In nature what appears random is really not, great example there is a beehive. Looks like chaos, really it is a self-managed factory. So many things have a pattern that will eventually be found.

Is truly random even possible?

Discuss.

Quote: AZDuffman

This begs the question, "is anything really random?" And "is random possible?"

We're surrounded by pure random events.
Look at ocean waves, each one is unique.
There are even people who study the
randomness of ocean wave mechanics.

Every snowflake is unique and random.
Every cloud in the sky is random and
constantly changing. There are no two
natural forests in the the world that are
the same, totally random outcomes for
plant placement. The stars are randomly
placed and no two behave exactly the
same.

Random.org has found the most reliable
source of true random is atmospheric
noise. I use their outcomes all the time,
every bit as dependable as a roulette
wheel.

What's This Fuss About True Randomness?

https://www.random.org/

The question is not is random possible,
the real question is just how much
random are we surrounded by. It's
everywhere and in everything.

This has been discussed before, but one of the great challenges in math/computer science is to create a perfect random number without outside stimulus. The serious random number generators will seed them with white noise somehow. For my own purposes in analyzing games, I've found Mersenne Twisters to pass any test of randomness. However, the pattern can be replicated, which ideally, you don't want. It is common knowledge you want to start the pattern at some truly random point, based on white noise, a neutrino count, or something.

MathExtremist is a true expert at this topic. You might try to dig up his old posts on the topic over at WoV.

Quote: Wizard

....I've found Mersenne Twisters to pass any test of randomness. However, the pattern can be replicated, which ideally, you don't want. It is common knowledge you want to start the pattern at some truly random point, based on white noise, a neutrino count, or something.

In simple terms, what is the difference in this? If the "pattern can be replicated" how does it pass a test of randomness?

I am no math expert there, and if it does not involve finance/econ I get lost more quickly. But even with that I am not getting the statement.

In a related question as far as machines go, could you not just make a pattern so huge that no sharp is going to be able to hang around the casino to figure it out? Pattern of 1 million, 10 million? You would have to observe the machine for a year or more?