737 Max Crash

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March 15th, 2019 at 2:51:20 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
Apologies if we are discussing this in a different thread , I looked for it and don't see it.

Though it's coming out slowly, the reasons for this latest crash and the Lion Air crash seem to be that the planes were programmed to take over and start flying the plane by bot. Maybe it's just me, but the arrogance of the people who would make the decision to program something like that just sends me to the moon!

Which makes me think of the self-driving car. I want nothing to do with a vehicle that might "take over" and decide to slam on the brakes without my participation - I have saved my bacon by swerving instead of braking more than once.

Quote: link
Regulators in the U.S. and Canada have said the profiles of the two short flights are similar, but haven’t yet concluded they were caused by the same problem. The Lion Air flight in Indonesia descended and climbed more than two dozen times as pilots fought against the plane’s automated safety system that was trying to push down the nose.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-14/doomed-boeing-jet-s-radio-messages-showed-immediate-problem-nyt
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
March 15th, 2019 at 4:09:04 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: odiousgambit


Which makes me think of the self-driving car. I want nothing to do with a vehicle that might "take over" and decide to slam on the brakes without my participation - I have saved my bacon by swerving instead of braking more than once.



This self-driving car thing might be the most oversold tech of our time. Demo versions with no controls. How do you move it about your driveway or a parking lot? I agree, no thanks. But the younger generation will take to them.

Agree on swerve vs. brake. Same as I do not like these new e-brakes. I want a solid cable I can yank. I have lost brakes at least twice in my life*, I want to have that security.

* The number of "emergencies" I have been involved with in my life can seem amazing to some. Maybe the number is high, but none ended up very serious.
The President is a fink.
March 15th, 2019 at 4:49:30 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
e-brakes? you mean emergency brakes I guess. What is different about the new ones?
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
March 15th, 2019 at 4:58:59 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
FYI
We have been discussing the accidents in the "Worst possible news for Boeing" thread
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
March 15th, 2019 at 5:09:30 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: odiousgambit
Though it's coming out slowly, the reasons for this latest crash and the Lion Air crash seem to be that the planes were programmed to take over and start flying the plane by bot. Maybe it's just me, but the arrogance of the people who would make the decision to program something like that just sends me to the moon!

Which makes me think of the self-driving car. I want nothing to do with a vehicle that might "take over" and decide to slam on the brakes without my participation - I have saved my bacon by swerving instead of braking more than once.


It is frightening to think of a plane making "decisions" on its own that will clearly result in the death of everyone on board while the pilot is frantically trying to decipher what is happening and wrest control of the jet.

The engineering trail may go back deeper than just this Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

The original 1960's B737 concept was to remove one of three engines from the B727, and scale everything down accordingly. The resulting jet sold 1125 models over a 15 year period. In the 1980s the jet got its own engines and the "classic" models sold another 2007jets in another 15 year period. Now Boeing began competing with a ground up design from Airbus which didn't have to bother with factors from the early 1960s. The Airbus design was much more robust than Boeing's design especially in the longer variants. The so called "Next Generation" started selling in 1993 and sold 6362 shorter length jets and 557 longer jets.

At this point Airbus began it's "new engine option" line of jets, and both Southwest and American threatened to adopt the Airbus neo jets as their design.
I think lawyers will argue that Boeing countered by putting engines that were too large on the now ancient design. That forced the FAA to require systems like MCAS.
March 15th, 2019 at 5:51:51 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: odiousgambit
e-brakes? you mean emergency brakes I guess. What is different about the new ones?


They call the new ones "e-brakes" for some reason but yes I mean emergency/parking/hand-brakes.

I am going to guess you have done some brake work in your day and know a traditional emergency brake uses a pedal or handle to pull a cable which pulls the brake shoes in the rear to stop the car. But now:

Quote: wikipedia
A recent variation is the electric parking brake. First installed in the 2001 BMW 7 Series (E65), electric parking brakes have since appeared in a number of vehicles. Two variations are available: In the more-traditional "cable-pulling" type, an electric motor simply pulls the parking brake cable on the push or pull of a button rather than a mechanical pedal or handle in the cabin. A more complex unit [3] (first seen on the 2003 Audi A8) uses a computer-controlled motor attached to each of the two rear brake calipers referred to as the Motor on Caliper(MoC) system.


The simple cable is no more. Complex systems like this can break. Give me the old way!
The President is a fink.
March 15th, 2019 at 5:27:45 PM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Here is part of a memo Southwest CEO sent to its employees

"Our experience with the MAX, along with the other U.S. operators, has been phenomenal. We've operated over 40,000 flights covering almost 90,000 hours. There is a ton of data collected, which we continuously monitor. In all our analysis since our first flight in 2017, nothing has presented any flight safety concerns. It has been a superb addition to our fleet."
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
March 15th, 2019 at 5:46:40 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: terapined
We've operated over 40,000 flights covering almost 90,000 hours. There is a ton of data collected, which we continuously monitor.


I have no doubt that is an honest statement. I think at some point Southwest should be able to fly these jets. Passengers should be informed which routes and time they are on, and it is in Southwest's interest not to reassure people that there is no danger.
March 15th, 2019 at 6:57:53 PM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Some new info coming from the crash site
From the New York Times
I love when MSN.com reposts a Times article so I can read it for free
The NY Times does some excellent reporting

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-evidence-in-ethiopian-737-crash-points-to-connection-to-earlier-disaster/ar-BBUPmxs?ocid=spartandhp

"The evidence, a piece of the Boeing 737 Max 8 jet that crashed in Ethiopia last weekend killing 157 people, suggests that the plane’s stabilizers were tilted upward, according to two people with knowledge of the recovery operations. At that angle, the stabilizers would have forced down the nose of the jet, a similarity with the Lion Air crash in October."

"The new evidence found at the crash site in Ethiopia, a piece of equipment known as a jackscrew, controls the angle of the horizontal stabilizers. The stabilizers can be triggered by the automated system, known as MCAS."
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
March 16th, 2019 at 6:51:08 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
I am told that there is nothing more basic in the training of a pilot than what to do in the case of a stall. The plane is not getting lift from it's wings as the air speed is too low. An airliner in particular can't just "step on the gas" to correct this, the nose of the plane has to go down. Just flying 101 here, I'm told.

so to think you need to have a system to automatically correct the situation does say they have to allow for pilots who are inexperienced. Why would they be flying big airliners?
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
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