Shakespeare/Christopher Marlowe

Quote: Wizard

You're right, I should have said "translate," although there is a great deal of sway the translator has in how things turn out.

I think that is an understatement.

Look at one verse in particular. One translation uses "morning star" which is an ancient name for the planet Venus, and KJV uses Latin name for the planet Venus, "Lucifer".

Isaiah 14:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:12 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
12 “How did you come to fall from the heavens,morning star, son of the dawn? How did you come to be cut to the ground,conqueroir of nations?

It's interesting that the book of Isiah is not discussing Satan in any way, yet here is the source of the idea that Satan's first name is Lucifer.

The word "Satan" is used in only four books in the Old Testament (Job, 1 Chronicles, Psalms, Zechariah )

Quote: Wizard

Some Christians believe the King James was a divinely inspired translation and all others are straight from the pit of hell.

Doctrine is common in religion.

I should probably make a new thread about this, but I hear the Catholic Church is considering changing the English translation of the Lord's Prayer, what they call the "Our Father." The Pope is especially in favor it. As a reminder, here it is:

Quote: Matthew 6:10-13

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.

As issue the the phrase, "lead us not into temptation." What I heard yesterday on NPR was that, according to the Pope, god doesn't lead people into temptation, but rather Satan. Of course, the hard liners oppose the change.

I'd be interested in FrG's opinion.

Quote: Wizard

I should probably make a new thread about this, but I hear the Catholic Church is considering changing the English translation of the Lord's Prayer, what they call the "Our Father." The Pope is especially in favor it. As a reminder, here it is:



As issue the the phrase, "lead us not into temptation." What I heard yesterday on NPR was that, according to the Pope, god doesn't lead people into temptation, but rather Satan. Of course, the hard liners oppose the change.

I'd be interested in FrG's opinion.

I do not see a change in the line, "lead us not into temptation." What do they want to change it to?

FWIW I am not against modernizing a few words. Same as the Holy Ghost became the Holy Spirit. As a kid, we had to deal with changing what our parents taught us before Catholic School.

Quote: AZDuffman

I do not see a change in the line, "lead us not into temptation." What do they want to change it to?

When you're addressing god and asking him to "lead us not into temptation," it implies that god is doing the leading there.

As a joke, I don't need help, I can find temptation all by myself ;-).

On NPR they stated the suggested wording change, but I don't remember it exactly. Something like "Help us to avoid temptation."

"And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one."

Recent polls show 83% of Catholics
believe there is no Satan, far above
most other Xtions sects like Baptists
and Methodists. The Vatican has
a real credibility problem. Most of
their followers don't believe the
devil is real, and they do believe
in using artificial contraception.
Major messaging failure on the
part of the Church.

Ha, I laughed out loud at Evenbob's comment. Only he could think the message of the Church is about Satan and contraception.

Quote: FrGamble

Ha, I laughed out loud at Evenbob's comment. Only he could think the message of the Church is about Satan and contraception.

Cause we all know it's SATAN causing
them to use contraception.. lol

I miss the Church Lady

Quote: Wizard

I should probably make a new thread about this, but I hear the Catholic Church is considering changing the English translation of the Lord's Prayer, what they call the "Our Father." The Pope is especially in favor it. As a reminder, here it is:



As issue the the phrase, "lead us not into temptation." What I heard yesterday on NPR was that, according to the Pope, god doesn't lead people into temptation, but rather Satan. Of course, the hard liners oppose the change.

I'd be interested in FrG's opinion.

I think this is a whole lotta hubub over not much.

When I pray the Lord's Prayer I don't think I am asking God to never undergo temptation. First of all the Lord would be failing miserably at this because I am tempted way too much. Secondly no temptation is not a good thing spiritually. It is like trying to win a race without ever working out. Temptation is not the problem it is falling to temptation and this is what I beg the Lord to help me with. Maybe a word change to something like, "help us not to fall to temptation" would express this better but I think the English translation of the Greek is pretty right on. It just needs to be clear that since the Lord is obviously not going to lead us into temptation what we are praying for is that we don't give in to it.

Quote: FrGamble

First of all the Lord would be failing miserably at this because I am tempted way too much. Secondly no temptation is not a good thing spiritually. It is like trying to win a race without ever working out. Temptation is not the problem it is falling to temptation

Temptation is not a part of
an atheists vocabulary. I just
lead my life with common
sense and information. I
never overdo it on anything,
and try and make decisions
based on experience and
what's good for me.

Quote: FrGamble

I think this is a whole lotta hubub over not much.

When I pray the Lord's Prayer I don't think I am asking God to never undergo temptation. First of all the Lord would be failing miserably at this because I am tempted way too much. Secondly no temptation is not a good thing spiritually. It is like trying to win a race without ever working out. Temptation is not the problem it is falling to temptation and this is what I beg the Lord to help me with. Maybe a word change to something like, "help us not to fall to temptation" would express this better but I think the English translation of the Greek is pretty right on. It just needs to be clear that since the Lord is obviously not going to lead us into temptation what we are praying for is that we don't give in to it.

Thanks Padre. Such a good post that I can't think of anything to challenge about it.