Democratic debates

July 7th, 2019 at 7:12:56 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: AZDuffman


Only partly correct. A VAT is a tax charged on VALUE ADDED to goods. It is added at every stage of production. A guy cuts down a tree and has to pay VAT at the sawmill. The sawmill makes wood and has to pay the VAT on the total sale price, keeping what they paid before as a "rebate." The wood gets made into a picnic table for sale at THD. THD charges a VAT on the full amount, keeping what they paid to the sawmill as a "rebate." This makes a VAT a very dangerous tax, it is being paid at every level and adds up. It is rolled into the final price, hiding the true cost from the buyer. For more complex goods it gets higher and higher as it is collected at every level of production.


Your description is correct in that each business that handles the product pays the VAT on their selling price. You also know that each business gets a credit for what they paid in VAT. If you follow this through the government only makes what is charged in VAT to the final consumer. All other amounts collected are credited back by the government and is not cumulative for the government. This tax in every jurisdiction that I know of is shown as a line item on the consumers invoice so it is NOT a hidden tax.

Canada has a VAT (called GST) and when the Canadian government introduced the VAT their main selling point was that it was visible and was replacing a hidden manufacturers tax.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
July 8th, 2019 at 2:17:45 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: AZDuffman
Lets keep on round numbers and call it $3 trillion to account for administration of the program. Congrats! You just required a 50% sales tax to pay for this!

While retail sales hit $6 trillion in 2018, the total value of all goods and (durable and non-durable) is closer to $18 trillion.

State and local governments collected a combined $377 billion in revenue from general sales taxes. State and local governments collected an additional $182 billion from selective sales taxes. So that adds up to $559 billion.

Jumping from $559 billion to $3 trillion is indeed a very tall order, but it's not quite as bad as a 50% sales tax.

But your basic point still stands. It's like tax rebate on mortgages. It is debatable if it makes homes more affordable, because the value of tax rebate is more or less built into the price of the home. Canada does not have such a tax rebate and home ownership rate in Canada is roughly the same as the USA.
July 8th, 2019 at 2:28:54 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: kenarman
Your description is correct in that each business that handles the product pays the VAT on their selling price. You also know that each business gets a credit for what they paid in VAT. If you follow this through the government only makes what is charged in VAT to the final consumer. All other amounts collected are credited back by the government and is not cumulative for the government. This tax in every jurisdiction that I know of is shown as a line item on the consumers invoice so it is NOT a hidden tax.

Canada has a VAT (called GST) and when the Canadian government introduced the VAT their main selling point was that it was visible and was replacing a hidden manufacturers tax.


My understanding is that GST is a sales tax and not a VAT. I have seen it on receipts when I traveled there, and even got a refund as a non-Canadian in certain cases when I left the country. I also keep hearing that the USA is one of the few countries that adds the sales tax at the register, which surprises foreign visitors, so the VAT may or may not be a line item in some places.
The President is a fink.
July 8th, 2019 at 2:38:51 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Pacomartin
While retail sales hit $6 trillion in 2018, the total value of all goods and (durable and non-durable) is closer to $18 trillion.

State and local governments collected a combined $377 billion in revenue from general sales taxes. State and local governments collected an additional $182 billion from selective sales taxes. So that adds up to $559 billion.

Jumping from $559 billion to $3 trillion is indeed a very tall order, but it's not quite as bad as a 50% sales tax.

But your basic point still stands. It's like tax rebate on mortgages. It is debatable if it makes homes more affordable, because the value of tax rebate is more or less built into the price of the home. Canada does not have such a tax rebate and home ownership rate in Canada is roughly the same as the USA.


$18 Trillion is GDP. And you are not "jumping from $559 billion to $3 trillion." The UBI would be mostly new spending. But no matter what the point is you cannot "give" someone $1,000 unless someone produces $1,000. A selling point of UBI is that it will let some people go to school or whatever, so many who receive it will be producing nothing. Even Saudi Arabia with all of their oil actually producing wealth is cutting back on these kinds of payments. The idea is very dangerous.
The President is a fink.
July 8th, 2019 at 7:03:13 AM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: AZDuffman
My understanding is that GST is a sales tax and not a VAT. I have seen it on receipts when I traveled there, and even got a refund as a non-Canadian in certain cases when I left the country. I also keep hearing that the USA is one of the few countries that adds the sales tax at the register, which surprises foreign visitors, so the VAT may or may not be a line item in some places.


From 'investinganswers.com'. "Under a sales tax, the tax is collected only once at the consumer's point of purchase. The VAT tax, however, is collected every time a business purchases products from other businesses within the product's supply chain." As a businessman in Canada from before the GST was implemented I can ensure you it is a Value Added Tax because it is collected at every step of the way. A VAT also must be a line item so that a business can identify the amount it has paid to receive it's input credit.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
July 9th, 2019 at 2:03:49 AM permalink
YeahBaby
Member since: May 24, 2016
Threads: 5
Posts: 364
July 22nd, 2019 at 9:33:06 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
I listened to Mariann Williamson in an interview outside of the debates, and I've had to up my estimation of her as a viable candidate.

Some of her Oprah-esque persona was disconcerting, but she does have many solid thought out positions. I will have to look at her platform.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
July 24th, 2019 at 3:54:12 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: rxwine
I listened to Mariann Williamson in an interview outside of the debates, and I've had to up my estimation of her as a viable candidate.
cSome of her Oprah-esque persona was disconcerting, but she does have many solid thought out positions. I will have to look at her platform.


Republican strategist Jeff Roe, who ran the 2016 presidential campaign of U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, to ask his 16,000 Twitter followers and fellow Republicans "to donate $1 to keep Mariann Williamson on the debate stage.

I guess if she gets another 4:49 to speak that is less time for Kamala Harris
July 24th, 2019 at 5:10:17 AM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
Threads: 4
Posts: 1232
Quote: rxwine
I listened to Mariann Williamson in an interview outside of the debates, and I've had to up my estimation of her as a viable candidate.

Some of her Oprah-esque persona was disconcerting, but she does have many solid thought out positions. I will have to look at her platform.
That's the funniest post I've read in a long time. Keep it up. Maybe it belongs in the Trump jokes thread though.
July 24th, 2019 at 3:35:00 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: rxwine
I listened to Mariann Williamson in an interview outside of the debates,.


Good god, don't get me started. She's
that New Age guru involved with the
Course in Miracles claptrap. She was
a hot babe in the 80's, not so much
anymore. The woman who wrote ACIM
claimed:

"that the book had been dictated to her word for word via "inner dictation" from Jesus."

Nuff said..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.