Columbus Day or Indiginous People'd Day?

Quote: Gandler

And most of those millions of deaths were not due to cruelty, or was due to poor immune systems of the Natives...

"Numerous diseases were brought to North America, including smallpox, bubonic plague, chickenpox, cholera, the common cold, diphtheria, influenza, malaria, measles, scarlet fever, sexually transmitted diseases, typhoid, typhus, tuberculosis, pertussis (whooping cough). Widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the primary cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans." wiki

Quote: Gandler

Yes there was some other advances like math, calendars, and agriculture in the New World. But, Europe and Asian countries were far more advanced, that was simply a fact.

Read the books.

Quote: Gandler

And most of those millions of deaths were not due to cruelty, or was due to poor immune systems of the Natives...

Indeed the majority of deaths came via infection, but to say it wasn't cruel is ignorant. It was not a case of, as we were taught in school, having a sit down meal in November and "whoops". And I won't parrot the tired trope of the white man handing out infected blankets in the world's first case of biological warfare. Let's not be stupid, the white man was as terrified of that, MORE, than the natives. They knew. Natives didn't. The very idea is ridiculous.

But Cortes' victory over the Incans WAS manufactured. Spain lost every battle previous to that. Only through following the path of previous conquerors was he successful. Only by waiting for the infection to spread and then attacking was he able to fell the Inca and conquer Tenochtilan.

"I didn't rob the guy when he was strong and vital. I waited until the cancer almost had him, then I took all his s#$%." You may not have killed him, but if that's not cruelty then I am a hotdog sandwich.

Quote: Gandler

If you let yourself get upset over the sins of history, it's too much, there are enough current atrocities in our world that we need to be working on.....

I accept the sins of history, but I neither feel victimized by some or apologetic for others... I am only resposible for what I am directly involved in, I don't have any connection to my ancestors....

I get upset because today's atrocities are borne of the same stupidity and ignorance. How many people have died, innocent people, regular people, thanks to the "War on terror"? And what are we TOLD about the WoT? They hate our freedom. They hate our way of life. They hate our culture. They hate our beaches. Our TV. They're savages wanting to kill you, so kill them first. It's the same f#$%ing thing. They hate us because WE forced ourselves into their culture. WE desecrated their holy land with our presence. WE f#$%ed them over and out. And instead of learning about what actions were taken, differences in cultures, ways to avoid conflict and coexist, we whitewash and erase. It wasn't US forces in the Holy Land over the local forces that caused the strife, it was our freedom! Our MTV!

It's bulls#$% of the highest order, and causes untold pain and strife, for what reason? So a few people can maintain their power? Because some people are so insecure the truth is beyond them? I'm pissed off not because I live in NYS instead of West Haudenosaunee, but because the problems that f#$%ed my people over and out and continue to f#$% me over and out are the same problems f#$%ing us over and out right now. Those same atrocities, almost all of them convalescing around a cloud of manufactured bulls#$%.

I look at it like these issues we have with the past are the same ones f#$%ing us over now. The same language used to describe my people are the same words used to keep blacks in their place in the 20th century, the same words being used about Muslims 'cross the sea today. The same wonky beliefs used to discriminate, make one an "other", and take one's humanity are the same being used against the gays, used against "immigrants", used against the mentally unstable. In this case there is literally no reason; admitting Native glory will not affect a thing. We'll still be in the US, NY will still be NY, the Incan Dynasty will stay buried and dead. But we can't even do that. We can't even admit that someone different than us had it together. That someone not us *gasp* might have succeeded.

If we can't reconcile the past, what f#$%ing hope is there for the future?

That's why I stay pissed. Content men rarely effect change.

(PS - I thank you again for the convo, and again apologies for my pointedness. Admittedly, there's a lot of personal stuff bleeding through)

Quote: AZDuffman

This is a huge thing. A Black guy I used to work with unfriended me when I told him to get over slavery after he made rant after rant on FB. Reality is slavery does not affect any Black alive today, and if it was not taught in history people would not know it existed.

I could get mad about how the Irish were treated by the Brits. Or land people on my mother's mother's side had stolen by the Austro-Hungarians. Would any of that get me anything?

Today an Indian can live in squalor on a reservation, bitter over history. Or they can decide what is is and make the best life they can. Dirty secret is that the choice will hardly affect anyone other than them one way or another.

Good, now you can get over trying to save white dead men from facts of their own lives.

Quote: rxwine

Good, now you can get over trying to save white dead men from facts of their own lives.

Nothing to save most of them from. Well, need to save them from revisionist historians who want to change history as was done in "1984."

Quote: Face

And I won't parrot the tired trope of the white man handing out infected blankets in the world's first case of biological warfare.

"First case?" Not even close. Bio warfare was tried at least as early as the Middle Ages and catapulting any kind of infected anything over castle walls. And probably before that.

Quote: AZDuffman

"First case?" Not even close. Bio warfare was tried at least as early as the Middle Ages and catapulting any kind of infected anything over castle walls. And probably before that.

This is true.

Also, that whole infected blanket story is an urban myth, there is zero evidence for that.

Natives got sick just like anyone else with an immune system not used to foreign microbes. Its basic science, they were isolated for the rest of the trading works and had weak innume systems (also due to not living with domesticated animals), so diseases spread rapidly, blankets did not happen, and would not have been any more effective than the standard interactions...

Do Europeans blame Asisns for the Bubonic Plague (very similar circumstances).... Of course not, because it would be silly.

a good book covering the subject of "why has the White Man prevailed in so many places?" [if I can put it that way ] . The author rejects a simplified answer, so it is hard to summarize. He covers the whole world, not just America. Certainly, he credits military superiority, but as you can see from the title, germs etc. too. But he really goes deep into how this would all happen.

Quote: odiousgambit

a good book covering the subject of "why has the White Man prevailed in so many places?" [if I can put it that way ] . The author rejects a simplified answer, so it is hard to summarize. He covers the whole world, not just America. Certainly, he credits military superiority, but as you can see from the title, germs etc. too. But he really goes deep into how this would all happen.

Yes he talks much of domesticated animals which both freed up labor and increased disease resistance.

It is a good book (most if his are).


This is a brilliant video on Columbus

https://youtu.be/qo7REgn7TNg

Face: Cortes conquered the Aztecs in Mexico didn't he? Not the Inca in Peru.

Quote: zippyboy

Face: Cortes conquered the Aztecs in Mexico didn't he? Not the Inca in Peru.

He did. And, the Aztec did far worse to others....