Science and Religion

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October 20th, 2019 at 8:10:36 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
We're hijacking that St. Newman thread with the evolution discussion, I suggest we start this new thread. It can largely be about evolution or not.

A common theme with our atheists here is that learning science led them to atheism. This is understandable, but I blame this on the Church.* It just should not happen that learning Science causes a loss of faith this day and age.

In defense, naturally the Church is saddled with the problem that all that scripture was written ages ago. Yet there is no need to teach anyone that the fables in the Bible are literally true, yet this still goes on and leads to this problem. I know for a fact that the need to change this has been known for a long time; my grandfather had books about it written some time around the start of the 20th century, possibly earlier, and in any case no doubt such has earlier origins. Freethinking books they were called, and the idea was the fables, for example, can be seen for what they are, and actually have value as allegories, yet to know this, one can still be a undiminished Christian.

I just shake my head when I hear somebody say 'once I learned geology, I became an atheist.'

*ecumenically speaking
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
October 20th, 2019 at 8:21:40 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
As for evolution, this seems to still produce the binary choice for tons of people: either I believe in Evolution, or I have to be an atheist.

Making this a binary choice seems to be the fault of fundamentalists to me, because when I have seen people asked "do you believe in Evolution" it is a question to put us on the spot about believing the Bible, about having faith. Scientifically minded people can ask that too, also posing it as a binary construction, but I have seen less of it from them, to be truthful.

I reject the idea that the Biblical story of Creation, while having beautiful allegorical properties, must be taken as the Truth, in place of Evolution. I don't even like to hear someone use the word "believe" when it comes to Evolution; it is not about belief, it is about science.

Think about how silly it would be to ask someone "so do you believe in the Atomic Theory?"

btw I'm not sure about capitalization rules when it comes to these topics LOL
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
October 20th, 2019 at 8:33:57 AM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: odiousgambit
As for evolution, this seems to still produce the binary choice for tons of people: either I believe in Evolution, or I have to be an atheist.

Making this a binary choice seems to be the fault of fundamentalists to me, because when I have seen people asked "do you believe in Evolution" it is a question to put us on the spot about believing the Bible, about having faith. Scientifically minded people can ask that too, also posing it as a binary construction, but I have seen less of it from them, to be truthful.

I reject the idea that the Biblical story of Creation, while having beautiful allegorical properties, must be taken as the Truth, in place of Evolution. I don't even like to hear someone use the word "believe" when it comes to Evolution; it is not about belief, it is about science.

Think about how silly it would be to ask someone "so do you believe in the Atomic Theory?"

btw I'm not sure about capitalization rules when it comes to these topics LOL


You cannot take the Bible literally and beleive in Evolution, there are contradictions.

If you take the bible in literal form, you are at odds with science (and history).

People say that the Bible is to be taken as a set of stories. But, the bible also says it is supposed to be taken literally, so I would argue to be a true Christian you have to take it literally.
October 20th, 2019 at 9:53:28 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
The idea that science and religion are warring against each other is a modern phenomenon. The idea can be traced back to 1896 and an awful book, more of an anti-Catholic rant by the president of Cornell University, Andrew D. White. A 2 volume work, "History of warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom". It is just made up stuff mostly. From this popular book the blatant lies that people in Columbus' day thought the world was flat and that the medieval Church say science as evil was made up. The truth is that science and theology have worked together and supported each other. Almost all the founders of all the different fields of science were religious people with strong faith. The beauty and order of the natural world is what often inspires scientists who see their study of the natural world revealing something about God.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 20th, 2019 at 9:58:56 AM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: FrGamble
The idea that science and religion are warring against each other is a modern phenomenon. The idea can be traced back to 1896 and an awful book, more of an anti-Catholic rant by the president of Cornell University, Andrew D. White. A 2 volume work, "History of warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom". It is just made up stuff mostly. From this popular book the blatant lies that people in Columbus' day thought the world was flat and that the medieval Church say science as evil was made up. The truth is that science and theology have worked together and supported each other. Almost all the founders of all the different fields of science were religious people with strong faith. The beauty and order of the natural world is what often inspires scientists who see their study of the natural world revealing something about God.


Seriously?

Religion started the "war"...

From the Vatican prosecuting Galelio (and not giving him a formal pardon until the 90s....) to discrediting evolution, the Vatican has been fighting (sometimes literally) science that may contradict the Bible and Catholic canon.....
October 20th, 2019 at 10:08:50 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Gandler
Seriously?

Religion started the "war"...

From the Vatican prosecuting Galelio (and not giving him a formal pardon until the 90s....) to discrediting evolution, the Vatican has been fighting (sometimes literally) science that may contradict the Bible and Catholic canon.....


Don't bother, FrG won't budge. He claims
the Church has always LOVVVVVVED science
and has never stood in it's way. In fact, he
claims his church is responsible for the
state of science today. That science and
god have always been hand in hand. LOL
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 20th, 2019 at 10:27:46 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
Quote: Gandler
You cannot take the Bible literally and beleive in Evolution, there are contradictions.
agreed, but I wince again at "believe in Evolution" ... it's Science, it's not about belief. It's possible to accept Evolution and have issues with what some scientists conclude. I certainly have issues with how it is taught, but generally think of it as a valid theory.

Quote:
If you take the bible in literal form, you are at odds with science (and history).
the things that are obvious today, for adults, to be fables, yes, such a person [yep there are plenty even now] is quite at odds indeed

Quote:
People say that the Bible is to be taken as a set of stories. But, the bible also says it is supposed to be taken literally,
where does it say that?
Quote:
so I would argue to be a true Christian you have to take it literally.
you're getting binary again LOL. To be a Fundamentalist you'd have to ponder it, but are you saying Christians who are not Fundamentalists are not Christians?

Quote: Gandler
Seriously?

Religion started the "war"...
a faction did

Quote:
From the Vatican prosecuting Galelio (and not giving him a formal pardon until the 90s....) to discrediting evolution, the Vatican has been fighting (sometimes literally) science that may contradict the Bible and Catholic canon.....
It's more complicated than often represented; initially the Pope and the Jesuits supported him and the science. When he tried to defend himself from other factions, what he wrote attacked the Church, they felt, and then he lost all support. It's important to note that the science he discovered was not automatically the problem; unfortunately, to some people it was just too new.
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
October 20th, 2019 at 10:50:26 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Gandler
Seriously?

Religion started the "war"...

From the Vatican prosecuting Galelio (and not giving him a formal pardon until the 90s....) to discrediting evolution, the Vatican has been fighting (sometimes literally) science that may contradict the Bible and Catholic canon.....


Simply not true and you can look at this scientifically if you don't believe me. Take a look just at any of those who are considered the founders or fathers of just about any field of science and you will see that they are people of faith and often time religious, ordained, or very strong in their faith. The Church has never discredited evolution and believes that it might be very well how God created the human race. What science is there that contradicts the Bible or Catholic teaching? I don't think there is such a thing but I'm open to hearing about it.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 20th, 2019 at 10:56:51 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: FrGamble
What science is there that contradicts the Bible or Catholic teaching? I don't think there is such a thing but I'm open to hearing about it.


Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Rudolf Clausius - ∆U=Q+W.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
October 20th, 2019 at 12:07:18 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: FrGamble
Simply not true and you can look at this scientifically if you don't believe me. Take a look just at any of those who are considered the founders or fathers of just about any field of science and you will see that they are people of faith and often time religious, ordained, or very strong in their faith. The Church has never discredited evolution and believes that it might be very well how God created the human race. What science is there that contradicts the Bible or Catholic teaching? I don't think there is such a thing but I'm open to hearing about it.


Unless a scientist can prove there is no God he or she cannot call themselves a scientist if they exclude any possibility of intelligent design, creation, whatever other name one wants to call it. For some reason, science and academia went to war with religion sometime after WWII. It is an arrogance that they think mankind can do anything and there is no higher power. I just don't get it.
The President is a fink.
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