Science and Religion

Quote: FrGamble

The decline in the worship of God has little to do with our knowledge of how the world works. In fact learning about our amazing world helps us in our belief in God. The decline in the worship of God comes through our worship of ourselves in God's place and the rejection of objective truth.

"Secular" worship has replaced worship of God. Biggest being the religion of Global Warming and environmentalism. Some people prefer this because it gives them a higher power but without rules they do not like.

Quote: FrGamble

I felt a little uncomfortable with the "So show me." part of this heartfelt post. It reminded me of those mocking Christ as He was dying on the cross. "Come down from that cross and we will believe." Heal me and then I will believe.

I think we just have a fundamental difference in how our brain works.

You (and I use the generic "you" because this is common across all Men of God) say that G/J is not our personal parlor magician, and I can dig it. I get the argument about Faith, and I agree with you about Faith. But what boggles me is these same "magic tricks" you say are not to be expected because of your reasons of Faith, are the exact same magic tricks you use to bolster your argument and convince others of your knowledge! "We should not expect to be shown our every whim. But back in the day, He did it all the time!"

Great claims require great evidence. If you told me you benched 300lbs, I would be astounded. That's an accomplishment. 400? You're blowing my mind. 500?! That's effing crazy and I might need proof, but I ain't gonna take you to court over it. But if you're trying to get me to actually buy your weight training program, with the claim you can do 1,000 and I CAN TOO, I'm going to auto assume you're a crackpot. And I will hold that opinion until proven, because it's positively beyond imagination.

Quote: FrG

If we believe because of these things are we really loving God or are we just loving His power to work magic in our lives.

And not to poke eyes, but maybe this will help OG...

Existence =/= Love, and maybe this is where OG got confused. I don't deny that "proof" would be difficult for me. I'm a natural skeptic, and untrusting. But my mind is capable of change; I've seen it happen. My thoughts on His existence are as changeable as any; supply any verifiable evidence and I will begin to swing. Supply irrefutable evidence and I will claim His existence with no qualms whatsoever.

But if He stood right in front of me, you'd be crazy to expect anything more out of me than calling Him a c#$% and taking Him to task. I don't find your God to be lovable or respectable.

Belief is possible. I only need facts. Love is not. I have seen your God and I find Him wanting.

Quote: FrGamble

This is exactly what God says.

Sorry, this is what you claim
some god says. You have no
proof he says anything, you
have no proof such a god
even exists. So quoting him
means less than nothing.
Surely you understand that.

You quoting what god says is
akin to me quoting the aliens
in the spacecraft that abducted
me last week. Meaningless.

Quote: Face

I don't find your God to be lovable or respectable. .

Exactly. If the Xtion god is a loving
god, what would a hateful and
vengeful god look like. Whenever
a Xtion claims his god is loving,
I immediately think he's only
saying that because his god
terrifies him. He would sure terrify
me.

Quote: Face

You (and I use the generic "you" because this is common across all Men of God) say that G/J is not our personal parlor magician, and I can dig it. I get the argument about Faith, and I agree with you about Faith. But what boggles me is these same "magic tricks" you say are not to be expected because of your reasons of Faith, are the exact same magic tricks you use to bolster your argument and convince others of your knowledge! "We should not expect to be shown our every whim. But back in the day, He did it all the time!"

I think you are speaking into why I love Mark's Gospel so much. Everytime Jesus feeds the 5,000 or cures the sick or some other miracle the people extol Him as the Messiah but He silences them and warns them not to speak of this. The only time the statement of faith that Jesus is God is allowed to go unchallenged is when He is hanging on the cross and the centurion who pierces His side says, "Truly He is the Son of God".

I think miracles are not a good reason to believe. I do think they are evidence of the supernatural and of God's existence but you can see how far those things get you with unbelievers who are not open to believing. I have seen the blood of St. Janarius liquefy in front of my eyes, I've examined up close the miraculous hosts of Siena that are over 280 years old and as fresh today as they were back then, I've been to Loudres and Fatima and met many people who have been cured from illnesses there, I've experienced what I believe in my guardian angel acting on my behalf, but to be honest none of those things I think of daily or are a constant source of my love of and belief in Jesus. When God entered into my life in college when I was crippled with doubt and sin and overwhelmed by the injustice of the world and the suffering. I thought God was distant, unworthy of love, and certainly did not love me or desire to. However, to make a long story very short I discovered His true love for me in His suffering and sacrifice. That He was not scared of entering into the mess of my life, not with answers or miracles, but with His presence. Again think of those you love most and who love you the most. The miracle, if you will, is their presence that while not taking away the pain somehow make it easier and give you hope.

Quote:

Great claims require great evidence.

Very true. I do think on an intellectual level there is great evidence for Christ. However, that is not why I believe. Think about some of the great things you trust in not because of great intellectual evidence but because of personal experience and how it moves your heart. By the way I used to be big into lifting and my max was 320.

Quote:

But if He stood right in front of me, you'd be crazy to expect anything more out of me than calling Him a c#$% and taking Him to task. I don't find your God to be lovable or respectable.

That is exactly what you should do! Read Psalm 22 if you need the words to tell God off. He is a big God He can handle anything you throw at Him. We spend all this time trying to pretend to others, ourselves, and even to God that things are peachy - when they are not! God understands how painful life can be, He died an innocent man on the cross. He knows how we suffer and He suffers with us. He understands and would much rather you honestly pray like an Old Testament psalmist or prophet then just recite the Our Father and move on. Pour out your honest feelings to Him. That is the only way we can have a real relationship with anyone, including God.

Quote: FrGamble

God understands how painful life can be, He died an innocent man on the cross. He knows how we suffer and He suffers with us.

Horse pucky. It wasn't a god that
died on the cross, it was a man.
And he was hardly innocent. He
was a public nuisance and was
convicted of it. He died the way
100,000 others died, and it was
over. He knows nothing now,
he's been dead for 2000 years.

Quote: Evenbob

He
was a public nuisance and was
convicted of it.

This is a good reminder for a request for FrG. Maybe for Holy Week you could tell us a bit about how the Jews turned on Jesus so fast? To tell the truth, in Catholic School all we were told was sort of "rode in on a palm carpet on Sunday, betrayed by Thursday." I am going to guess that Wiz would also like to hear the nuts and bolts of how it all went down, Wiz correct me if I am wrong. In school, church, we just got told "it happened that way." Not much "why."

"Jesus being a public nuisance is recorded in the historical writings of Josephus and the possibility of public nuisance being the reason is also recorded as an official reason in the gospels." Rex Dinneny, , California State University,

Quote: Evenbob

"Jesus being a public nuisance is recorded in the historical writings of Josephus and the possibility of public nuisance being the reason is also recorded as an official reason in the gospels." Rex Dinneny, , California State University,

Jesus would agree with you, I believe, though I don't intend to offend FrG or whoever that would offend, certainly it is not polite language Dinneny is using [trying to be a nuisance himself] . The thing is, the High Priests who were in control of things were the ones finding Him a nuisance. He intended it, you don't hop on a donkey and accept the laying of palms before you, and head on into Jerusalem*, without intending to make a stir, for example [it completed a prophecy].

btw, AZ, you have to drop using that statement about "the Jews", replace it with High Priests or something, that is really offensive considering its history. At least I hope you don't blame "the Jews" as a group

*I think it was

and just to be clear, the High Priests were angering a lot of people by cooperating with the Romans, and of course they were profiting from it . They were worth irritating