Science and Religion

October 23rd, 2019 at 11:57:31 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I hate to break it to you but that's all you have as well in regards to reincarnation.


When have I ever said differently'
Even the scientists doing the
research have drawn no definite
conclusions. They say it points
to reincarnation, but can't say
it positively for obvious reasons.

It's like electricity. We can see
it exists, we can make it, use
it, measure it. But we really
don't know enough about it
to positively say what it is.
One of the theories is probably
correct, we just have to wait.

With god, you have nothing
but faith in what other people
tell you. Your own personal
experience is meaningless
because the experience of
someone else can be and is
usually totally different. My
own experience has no god in
it, why is yours more right
or valuable than mine. It
obviously isn't.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 24th, 2019 at 11:23:32 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
When have I ever said differently'
Even the scientists doing the
research have drawn no definite
conclusions. They say it points
to reincarnation, but can't say
it positively for obvious reasons.


And that obvious reason you speak of is only faith can provide the certainty we seek. Facts point to something and give us knowledge and the confidence to make a truth claim based on faith. The reason good scientists make no definite conclusions about something like reincarnation is because they realize it is not in the realm of science to make such claims. When some of these researchers who I imagine do believe in reincarnation take off their scientist hat they can say, as I think you do, that they believe reincarnation is true. Again I think you and they would have scant and dubious evidence to make such a claim but they would say that this is where the evidence points and I believe it. That is faith and that is reasonable and that is what we do all the time.

It needs to be said that true faith is always open to other evidence and examination or else it is blind faith.

Quote:
It's like electricity. We can see
it exists, we can make it, use
it, measure it. But we really
don't know enough about it
to positively say what it is.
One of the theories is probably
correct, we just have to wait.


You should really adopt this same view in regards to God it makes more sense. Instead with no evidence you posit a truth claim that there is absolutely no possibility that God can or does exist. That is simply blind faith.

Quote:
With god, you have nothing
but faith in what other people
tell you.


You have the exact same evidence for so much of what you believe. For example think about what you believe in regards to the Church based on what other people tell you disregarding what a priest tells you.

Quote:
Your own personal
experience is meaningless
because the experience of
someone else can be and is
usually totally different. My
own experience has no god in
it, why is yours more right
or valuable than mine. It
obviously isn't.


Why is my own personal experience meaningless because it is different than another's? Billions of people have had the same experience of transforming power of God's love in the person of Jesus Christ in their lives. Could your experience be different because you do not desire to have faith in something other than yourself? Isn't it you who wants to create their own reality and truth rather than depend of God to reveal it? That is your right to create meaning for yourself, but if that is what you choose to do don't attack me because I believe in something higher than myself and am committed to it.

I think this is precisely the real reason you have such antagonism towards religious faith. You think that I am claiming that I have some special knowledge about God and He loves me so much and doesn't really care about you. Nothing, NOTHING, could be further from the truth! You are just as valuable and wonderful in God's eyes as the Pope. It is your decision to not believe, your choice not to be open to anything I or anyone else says about religion, it is your will that is the only thing in your way to experiencing the love of God and faith in His Son Jesus Christ.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 24th, 2019 at 12:26:36 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
And that obvious reason you speak of is only faith can provide the certainty we seek.


Faith and certainty are the polar
opposite of each other. That you
think they're the same is exactly
what's wrong with your religion.
With the certainty of facts, faith
doesn't even enter into it. With
no factual proof, you have no
certainty, just faith.

Quote:
You should really adopt this same view in regards to God it makes more sense.


No it doesn't. With that attitude, I
would have to believe every dumb
idea I come across because it 'might'
be true. God is just another in a long
list of preposterous things not to
believe without a lot of proof to back
it up.

[
Quote:
Billions of people have had the same experience of transforming power of God's love


Or thought they have. Lots of people
have seen ghosts and been abducted
by aliens and seen Bigfoot and talked
to uncle George on a Ouija board. Or
thought they have. So what.

Quote:
You are just as valuable and wonderful in God's eyes as the Pope. .


I find it much more comforting that
you are I are as important in the
universe as the cockroach under
the sink. What some made up fake
god thinks is meaningless.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 24th, 2019 at 7:41:32 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Faith and certainty are the polar
opposite of each other....
With the certainty of facts, faith
doesn't even enter into it. With
no factual proof, you have no
certainty, just faith.


You have to have faith in the facts. Try as you want you and I are not talking about the same definition of faith. Faith is the certain conclusion we reach based on multiple facts, experiences, and evidence. It is trust in something. You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow and that is as certain as it can get. Yet all you have for this certain faith is lots and lots of experience and knowledge. It is not a fact that it will rise tomorrow but you and I and the whole world has faith and trust that it will (also a lot of hope that it does). You simply can't avoid the fact that our lives are built on faith. You are certain that your food isn't poisoned, that the ex-priest is right, that the roulette wheel is fair, but you have no proof of these things. You are certain only because you have faith!



Quote:
I would have to believe every dumb
idea I come across because it 'might'
be true. God is just another in a long
list of preposterous things not to
believe without a lot of proof to back
it up.


Never believe a dumb idea you come across just because it 'might' be true. This is especially the case with atheism. Also have a lot of proof to back up your beliefs.


Quote:
Or thought they have. Lots of people
have seen ghosts and been abducted
by aliens and seen Bigfoot and talked
to uncle George on a Ouija board. Or
thought they have. So what.


How cavalier you are to dismiss billions of people's lives and experiences by comparing them to being abducted by aliens. Come on you can do better than this. You can independently verify how these billions of people's lives have been made better through their relationship with Jesus Christ. When is the last time anyone could verify they really saw Bigfoot or a ghost?



Quote:
I find it much more comforting that
you are I are as important in the
universe as the cockroach under
the sink.


Again I think you are angry that you have this inferiority complex and that I somehow think I am better than you. That is simply not true! I don't have any secret knowledge or special thing to offer, just Jesus. He desires you just as much me or anyone else. He thinks you are a lot more valuable than a cockroach (what a sad thought) and that you are worth dying for. You are important and in your heart of hearts you know this.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 24th, 2019 at 8:42:14 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You have to have faith in the facts.


I have trust in the facts, no faith
needed. I have trust in proof,
no faith necessary. You can't
use the word faith like it's a
word that applies to everything.
It loses all meaning then.


Quote:
Also have a lot of proof to back up your beliefs.


Atheism is the lack of belief.
That's the dictionary definition.

Quote:
You can independently verify how these billions of people's lives have been made better through their relationship with Jesus Christ.


Or thru yoga, Islam, AA, zen, TM, Mormonism,
on and on. So what. If being Xtion was the
only way to make your life better, you would
be on to something. But it's just one of many.

Quote:
Again I think you are angry that you have this inferiority complex and that I somehow think I am better than you. .


Why would that make me angry,
it's humorous. It's too bad you
don't get the cockroach analogy.
Here's another one. There's a
breed of plains Indians who
worshiped the great spirit by
picking out a random tree and
making it the center of the
universe, and worshiping it.

That's the cockroach. Because the
universe is infinite, and has been
here forever, it has no center. That
makes you and I and every person
and every cockroach the center
of the universe. We are all equally
important. We are all equally unimportant
also. If you can grasp that, you'll
be far ahead of most priests with
all their 'education'.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 25th, 2019 at 11:12:51 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Faith;
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.. 2. belief that is not based on proof, as in a faith in a religion or god.

So you cannot say faith that
your brakes will work is the
same as a faith in god. They
are two different things. I
trust my brakes have been
designed and built correctly,
I have proof they have worked
in the past. You have no proof
of a god, so you have faith.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 25th, 2019 at 7:18:51 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob

Atheism is the lack of belief.
That's the dictionary definition.


However, haven't you said numerous times before that there is no possibility that God exists and that you reject the idea as silly and foolish? If you have a lack of belief in something it is like deciding not to collect stamps, but you don't deny that stamps do not exist.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 25th, 2019 at 7:22:39 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Faith;
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.. 2. belief that is not based on proof, as in a faith in a religion or god.

So you cannot say faith that
your brakes will work is the
same as a faith in god. They
are two different things. I
trust my brakes have been
designed and built correctly,
I have proof they have worked
in the past. You have no proof
of a god, so you have faith.


Do you not have trust and confidence in your brakes? That is the definition of faith. Your brakes have worked in the past so you have faith, aka trust, that they will work in the future. It is the exact same thing for God. I trust in my God and I have proof in my life and in the lives of countless others that God has worked in the past. I trust my God! Please tell me what is different between your faith in your brakes based on your experience that they have worked in the past and my faith in God based on my experience that He has worked in the past (and present).
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 25th, 2019 at 8:00:40 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
However, haven't you said numerous times before that there is no possibility that God exists


I'm an atheist who also believes
it's not possible for a god to exist.
You know this already.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 25th, 2019 at 8:22:12 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Do you not have trust and confidence in your brakes? That is the definition of faith.


As the dictionary definition points
out, it's not the same faith as
believing in an unproven religion.
Here it is again.


faith
/fāTH/

noun
1. trust in someone or something.

2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Two different kinds of faith. If you
have proof a god exists, why would
you need religious faith. Faith is
a homonym, a word that has more
than one meaning.

Like address, bark, or bright, there
are many English words that are
spelled the same but have two
or more meanings.

When you say you have faith your
brakes will work, you don't mean
you have no proof of them working
and you're hoping they do. You
have trust and confidence from
years of experience that they were
built properly and will stop the car.

With god you have no proof, so :

"faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Totally different than faith in the
plane you're in.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.