Science and Religion
October 23rd, 2019 at 11:57:31 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
When have I ever said differently' Even the scientists doing the research have drawn no definite conclusions. They say it points to reincarnation, but can't say it positively for obvious reasons. It's like electricity. We can see it exists, we can make it, use it, measure it. But we really don't know enough about it to positively say what it is. One of the theories is probably correct, we just have to wait. With god, you have nothing but faith in what other people tell you. Your own personal experience is meaningless because the experience of someone else can be and is usually totally different. My own experience has no god in it, why is yours more right or valuable than mine. It obviously isn't. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 24th, 2019 at 11:23:32 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
And that obvious reason you speak of is only faith can provide the certainty we seek. Facts point to something and give us knowledge and the confidence to make a truth claim based on faith. The reason good scientists make no definite conclusions about something like reincarnation is because they realize it is not in the realm of science to make such claims. When some of these researchers who I imagine do believe in reincarnation take off their scientist hat they can say, as I think you do, that they believe reincarnation is true. Again I think you and they would have scant and dubious evidence to make such a claim but they would say that this is where the evidence points and I believe it. That is faith and that is reasonable and that is what we do all the time. It needs to be said that true faith is always open to other evidence and examination or else it is blind faith.
You should really adopt this same view in regards to God it makes more sense. Instead with no evidence you posit a truth claim that there is absolutely no possibility that God can or does exist. That is simply blind faith.
You have the exact same evidence for so much of what you believe. For example think about what you believe in regards to the Church based on what other people tell you disregarding what a priest tells you.
Why is my own personal experience meaningless because it is different than another's? Billions of people have had the same experience of transforming power of God's love in the person of Jesus Christ in their lives. Could your experience be different because you do not desire to have faith in something other than yourself? Isn't it you who wants to create their own reality and truth rather than depend of God to reveal it? That is your right to create meaning for yourself, but if that is what you choose to do don't attack me because I believe in something higher than myself and am committed to it. I think this is precisely the real reason you have such antagonism towards religious faith. You think that I am claiming that I have some special knowledge about God and He loves me so much and doesn't really care about you. Nothing, NOTHING, could be further from the truth! You are just as valuable and wonderful in God's eyes as the Pope. It is your decision to not believe, your choice not to be open to anything I or anyone else says about religion, it is your will that is the only thing in your way to experiencing the love of God and faith in His Son Jesus Christ. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 24th, 2019 at 12:26:36 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Faith and certainty are the polar opposite of each other. That you think they're the same is exactly what's wrong with your religion. With the certainty of facts, faith doesn't even enter into it. With no factual proof, you have no certainty, just faith.
No it doesn't. With that attitude, I would have to believe every dumb idea I come across because it 'might' be true. God is just another in a long list of preposterous things not to believe without a lot of proof to back it up. [
Or thought they have. Lots of people have seen ghosts and been abducted by aliens and seen Bigfoot and talked to uncle George on a Ouija board. Or thought they have. So what.
I find it much more comforting that you are I are as important in the universe as the cockroach under the sink. What some made up fake god thinks is meaningless. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 24th, 2019 at 7:41:32 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
You have to have faith in the facts. Try as you want you and I are not talking about the same definition of faith. Faith is the certain conclusion we reach based on multiple facts, experiences, and evidence. It is trust in something. You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow and that is as certain as it can get. Yet all you have for this certain faith is lots and lots of experience and knowledge. It is not a fact that it will rise tomorrow but you and I and the whole world has faith and trust that it will (also a lot of hope that it does). You simply can't avoid the fact that our lives are built on faith. You are certain that your food isn't poisoned, that the ex-priest is right, that the roulette wheel is fair, but you have no proof of these things. You are certain only because you have faith!
Never believe a dumb idea you come across just because it 'might' be true. This is especially the case with atheism. Also have a lot of proof to back up your beliefs.
How cavalier you are to dismiss billions of people's lives and experiences by comparing them to being abducted by aliens. Come on you can do better than this. You can independently verify how these billions of people's lives have been made better through their relationship with Jesus Christ. When is the last time anyone could verify they really saw Bigfoot or a ghost?
Again I think you are angry that you have this inferiority complex and that I somehow think I am better than you. That is simply not true! I don't have any secret knowledge or special thing to offer, just Jesus. He desires you just as much me or anyone else. He thinks you are a lot more valuable than a cockroach (what a sad thought) and that you are worth dying for. You are important and in your heart of hearts you know this. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 24th, 2019 at 8:42:14 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
I have trust in the facts, no faith needed. I have trust in proof, no faith necessary. You can't use the word faith like it's a word that applies to everything. It loses all meaning then.
Atheism is the lack of belief. That's the dictionary definition.
Or thru yoga, Islam, AA, zen, TM, Mormonism, on and on. So what. If being Xtion was the only way to make your life better, you would be on to something. But it's just one of many.
Why would that make me angry, it's humorous. It's too bad you don't get the cockroach analogy. Here's another one. There's a breed of plains Indians who worshiped the great spirit by picking out a random tree and making it the center of the universe, and worshiping it. That's the cockroach. Because the universe is infinite, and has been here forever, it has no center. That makes you and I and every person and every cockroach the center of the universe. We are all equally important. We are all equally unimportant also. If you can grasp that, you'll be far ahead of most priests with all their 'education'. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 25th, 2019 at 11:12:51 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 | Faith; 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.. 2. belief that is not based on proof, as in a faith in a religion or god. So you cannot say faith that your brakes will work is the same as a faith in god. They are two different things. I trust my brakes have been designed and built correctly, I have proof they have worked in the past. You have no proof of a god, so you have faith. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 25th, 2019 at 7:18:51 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
However, haven't you said numerous times before that there is no possibility that God exists and that you reject the idea as silly and foolish? If you have a lack of belief in something it is like deciding not to collect stamps, but you don't deny that stamps do not exist. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 25th, 2019 at 7:22:39 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Do you not have trust and confidence in your brakes? That is the definition of faith. Your brakes have worked in the past so you have faith, aka trust, that they will work in the future. It is the exact same thing for God. I trust in my God and I have proof in my life and in the lives of countless others that God has worked in the past. I trust my God! Please tell me what is different between your faith in your brakes based on your experience that they have worked in the past and my faith in God based on my experience that He has worked in the past (and present). “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 25th, 2019 at 8:00:40 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
I'm an atheist who also believes it's not possible for a god to exist. You know this already. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 25th, 2019 at 8:22:12 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
As the dictionary definition points out, it's not the same faith as believing in an unproven religion. Here it is again. faith /fāTH/ noun 1. trust in someone or something. 2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Two different kinds of faith. If you have proof a god exists, why would you need religious faith. Faith is a homonym, a word that has more than one meaning. Like address, bark, or bright, there are many English words that are spelled the same but have two or more meanings. When you say you have faith your brakes will work, you don't mean you have no proof of them working and you're hoping they do. You have trust and confidence from years of experience that they were built properly and will stop the car. With god you have no proof, so : "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 Totally different than faith in the plane you're in. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |