First Principles

I find this very revealing and helpful.

1) What is a human being?
A created living being with a unique immortal soul directly created by God. The physical nature of our bodies may very well be from evolution, but God directly intervenes in the creation of human beings who share in God's reason, will, and freedom. We exist to love, which is to give ourselves to others. First and foremost we obviously need to love and honor our creator and the one who first gave Himself fully to us in love. At the same time we need to love others as ourselves. We are made to share eternity with God in complete joy.

2) What went wrong?
We did not use our freedom to love. We sinned. The problem with the world is first and foremost a problem with ourselves. We fall to the sins of pride, greed, gluttony, lust, you know the rest. This is at the heart of the injustices and evils we see around us. There is of course systematic sin but the root of it all is personal rejection of our purpose to love one another.

Quote: Fleastiff

A human being is an Ape that is Naked.

So is fur the significant difference between an Ape and a Human Being in your view?

Quote:

There is no right or wrong.

So are you comfortable accepting that your statement is wrong?
Are you saying there is no meaning to the words we use or that their definitions are just arbitrary and without significance?
What about universally accepted things that are wrong like murder of the innocent? We purposely use this word murder to seperate the reality of it from manslaughter, or killing in self-defense or in war. It is universally accepted as wrong do you disagree? Or rape, do you disagree that that is wrong? How about someone unjustly stealing your money or food, is that wrong?

Quote: aceofspades

1) what is a human being? A collection of cells with a consciousness - we came from a random happenstance called the Big Bang - we will eventually be extinct, like countless species before us - there is no purpose other than propagation of the species (as with all biological organisms)

Thank you I think this is an important thing to know in order to better understand what we are all thinking. This principle you hold will greatly effect 99% of how we think about life and our world. As it does for me and all of us, sometimes not even realizing it.

Quote:

what went wrong? Nothing went wrong

I find that really interesting. You don't see anything wrong with our world today, nothing you think we could do better in or change and then a little deeper to ask why don't we make these changes?

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: aceofspades

what went wrong? Nothing went wrong

I find that really interesting. You don't see anything wrong with our world today, nothing you think we could do better in or change and then a little deeper to ask why don't we make these changes?

You are getting into a Hume-ian debate

Quote: FrGamble

We are made to share eternity with God in complete joy.

I just threw up a little in my mouth.
Good grief, the nonsense humans
invent to sell their products.

2) What went wrong?
We did not use our freedom to love. We sinned.

Quote: FrGamble

I find that really interesting. You don't see anything wrong with our world today,

By 'wrong' what you really mean
is it's doesn't measure up to your
fairy tale idea of what the world
should look like. The world is as
it is, how could it be 'wrong'.
Better to ask what's wrong with
you, and work on fixing that.

Quote: Evenbob

By 'wrong' what you really mean
is it's doesn't measure up to your
fairy tale idea of what the world
should look like. The world is as
it is, how could it be 'wrong'.
Better to ask what's wrong with
you, and work on fixing that.

Bob this is not meant to be a thread to argue and insult. You don't believe in God and don't understand sin, I get it. What I would love to understand is why you come to these conclusions.
Yes, I believe the world and our lives are meant to be perfect so I see brokenness and sin. You apparently are okay with the way the world is because it just is? Is that correct? Is there anything you would want to change about the world?

Quote: FrGamble

You apparently are okay with the way the world is

Which world, the subjective world
that I create for myself? Or the
combination of subjective worlds
that everybody else creates that
we call society. You need to be far
more specific when you say 'world'.

In your world you create a god, and
think that means he exists in the
objective world. Of course he does
not or there would be evidence, of
which there is none. But that does
not deter you, everyone's subjective
reality must mirror yours, because
you think your way is the only way.

All this way of thinking will get you
in the end is a life of unhappiness
and frustration. You have to accept
there is no one right subjective reality,
just the one that works best for you
and lets you live peacefully with your
neighbor.

So for you reality and the world we live is subjective and made in your image?
For me the world is an objective reality that I have little control over. I certainly did not make up God and He is most certainly real. As real as the world He created and you believe you can make subjectively to your liking. This seems like one of our big differences. I accept the world and reality, you think you can make your own world and your own reality. I truly believe that my way of acceptance leads to much more happiness and peace than yours, but that is I guess my opinion.

Quote: FrGamble

So for you reality and the world we live is subjective and made in your image?
.

No. The objective world is the world
we all see. Mountains, oceans,
trees, cars. We can verify they exist,
measure them, whatever. That is
objective reality.

Subjective reality is where we live
in the objective world. The world
I see is slightly (or greatly) different
than the world you see. We have
had different training, experiences,
memories, upbringing. We are
enough alike that we can get along
in society. The people who have
an off the wall subjective reality,
we lock away from the rest of us
in mental institutions.

Subjective reality is why 5 people
can witness a crime and tell the
police 5 different stories of what
they saw. Everything that is perceived
in and through our consciousness is
subjective reality. And because we
are all different, those realities
are different.

Subjective reality is what makes
the world an interesting place. If
we all had exactly the same perceptions
of the world, we would be robots
sharing one mind. Your reality contains
a god because that's what you were
taught. God is real, even though you
can't prove it, he is very real to you.

I have no god in my world because
I was never taught I needed one, or
that there is even a god that exists.
I could pretend there was a god, and
after awhile I would probably begin
to believe it. Like people used to
believe witches had real powers,
could cast spells and do magic. That
was part of their subjective reality
and you would never be able to
talk them out of it.

For an atheist to believe in god, he
has to be shown god exists in the
objective world, like a Buick or
a tree exists. That has not been shown,
so there is no point for an atheist to
make god part of his subjective reality.