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First Principles
| January 14th, 2020 at 4:51:39 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Bob, I think it was just a few posts ago who said left to our own devices without guidance and teaching we would be monsters, I agree. There was probably more good going on 200 years ago then there is today, isn't that a frightening thought? You were safer walking around and interacting with people long ago than you are today. Not only are our brains bad at figuring out by themselves what is right, we are getting worse! I am not denying that people do extraordinarily good and selfless acts of kindness, but they also do unspeakable acts of evil. Do you disagree? Do you think that by ourselves, just using our own brains we can really know what is right? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 14th, 2020 at 4:53:49 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Really good post. My only thought is that I don't think morality evolves like the shape of bird beaks. In fact evolution seems to act against the type of morality we both value and strive to live our lives by. A strict atheistic view of morality would seem to emphasize survival of the fittest and not a care or protection of the weak and poor. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 14th, 2020 at 5:17:20 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
With all due respect, Father, what on Earth does that have to do with Atheism? I can't even respond, really, because that sentence is so far removed from actually expressing something coherent and logical that I'm baffled. I'll grant that an agnostic/atheist does have to come to his own moral view, because he has no purported, "Higher Authority," telling him what his view should be...but how does that lead to...I don't even....I'm just baffled. Morally, an atheist/agnostic, upon becoming one, is just tabula rasa. They look at the world and decide what they think is right or wrong, and how people should be treated is no different. I don't know. That sentence is kind of like what I see in divisive politics. It's like, "I think this type of person sucks, so I'm going to assume that everything about them sucks." "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 14th, 2020 at 5:18:55 PM permalink | |
| petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | It of course depends on how long a period you want to use, and each persons definition of morality. Murder rates are down since 90 https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/crime-trends-1990-2016, so that would indicate the reduction in religion corresponds with a lowering of the murder rate. Dolphins and Orca whales have often been shown to defend the vulnerable across species. So fish have higher morals than some folks. We are all different, creating our own reality's. I would say that you can't lump all atheists into the same bowl, just as there is a bit of difference in the many xtian groups. I think morality has evolved from the obvious value of respecting property rights. It's pretty simple, you leave my stuff alone or x, I leave your stuff alone or x. That pretty well covers it. The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |
| January 14th, 2020 at 5:19:14 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
I think there was this whole, "Slavery," thing that was going on 200 years ago. That wasn't so great. Actively buying and selling human beings, being permitted (legally) to do so. Not such a great look for the overall ethics of 200 years ago, I'll be honest with you. "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 14th, 2020 at 5:32:23 PM permalink | |
| kenarman Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 14 Posts: 4510 |
Cooperation among a group did develop by evolution since it is common among almost all species including non humans. I am not sure none humans know the meaning of poor but they certainly know the meaning of weak. Weak members of none human groups do receive the support of the group. They may have to accept the leadership of the physically strongest members of the group but will become accepted and valued members. In many species when a member becomes to weak and old they will voluntarily leave the group to keep the group strong and viable. The reason that many of threads of the forum exist is the disagreement between how much support the weak and poor should receive from society. Some including yourself think that unlimited support is the caring and proper response. Some of us feel that at some point this unlimited care and support will weaken our society so much that the society will no longer be able to survive. The survival of the group as a whole by definition must be the primary concern. Where this tipping point is drives the current debate and discord in society. "but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin |
| January 14th, 2020 at 5:38:52 PM permalink | |
| kenarman Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 14 Posts: 4510 |
The thing is that African Slaves weren't considered fully human at the time. This was obviously a terrible and untrue belief but if you read the literature of the time that was the original premise that allowed the slave trade. "but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin |
| January 14th, 2020 at 6:03:14 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I think you got offended thinking I was equating the poor morality of survival of the fittest with atheists. I was trying to say that an atheistic understanding of evolution would lead one to naturally see survival of the fittest as what is right. Now thank God, neither you nor anyone here or any sane person would think that. We immediately recognize through reason and the influence of religion throughout the millennia, but especially our Judeo-Christian history, that this power based morality is wrong. You can try to say morality evolves because if I don't respect your property than you won't respect mine, but that is not really what we are talking about is it. That is minimalist morality that works until someone believes they are strong enough to be above the law or they have an army behind them. What we believe is right is the golden rule and that is not based on fear of mutual destruction, but by love. That is not something that comes from evolution but revolution, the revolution of Christ and love. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 14th, 2020 at 7:49:33 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
You obviously think yours is, don't apply that to everybody else. I do just fine with right and wrong. Love your used car strategy, though. Better hurry, things are far worse now than ever before. Better accept god before it's too late. That's the very strategy Jesus used as he went village to village preaching that the end was near, better hurry! It works great for selling used cars too. Better hurry, this car won't be here tomorrow.. Selling selling, you're always selling. Seminary is the exact same training Chevy salesmen get. Different product, same training. Always be closing the deal. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 14th, 2020 at 8:18:32 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I kind of thought that based on your posts you would agree that human beings get it wrong all the time when not guided by some larger principles than themselves. Do you have any guiding principles since it seems like you think you get it right all the time? Do you also think that things are getting better morally? Do you guys not know that there are more people enslaved today then there ever were throughout the sad days when in our country the evil of racial slavery was legal? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |