First Principles

Quote: FrGamble

Do you have any guiding principles since it seems like you think you get it right all the time?

I get mine from the same place
you get yours, the society we
live in that makes the laws and
enforces them. Where does
society get it's morality from?
It's evolved over a long period
of time, like everything else.

Quote:

Do you also think that things are getting better morally?

Why would they be. Human
nature hasn't changed. We
are all basically selfish and
ego centered, even our
religious leaders. We put
ourselves first in every
situation, and our family.
No creatures as selfish and
clever as we are will get
'better' morally unless we're
forced to. That's your job,
to keep your believers in
line.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you got offended thinking I was equating the poor morality of survival of the fittest with atheists. I was trying to say that an atheistic understanding of evolution would lead one to naturally see survival of the fittest as what is right. Now thank God, neither you nor anyone here or any sane person would think that. We immediately recognize through reason and the influence of religion throughout the millennia, but especially our Judeo-Christian history, that this power based morality is wrong. You can try to say morality evolves because if I don't respect your property than you won't respect mine, but that is not really what we are talking about is it. That is minimalist morality that works until someone believes they are strong enough to be above the law or they have an army behind them. What we believe is right is the golden rule and that is not based on fear of mutual destruction, but by love. That is not something that comes from evolution but revolution, the revolution of Christ and love.

It must be terrible to go through life with such a jaded view of humanity Padre. No wonder you need support from God, Jesus and the Church. What I get from your post on your position is that humanity is so terrible that only your particular God will keep anyone from being an abuser of the weak. The extension of that is that the only good people in the world are Christians. That appears the exact opposite of someone who should be always looking for the good in people.

Quote: Evenbob

I get mine from the same place
you get yours, the society we
live in that makes the laws and
enforces tham.

I do NOT get my morality from the society we live in. In fact my morality is completely counter-cultural to society we live in. You couldn't be more wrong.

Quote:

Why would they be. Human
nature hasn't changed. We
are all basically selfish and
ego centered, even our
religious leaders.

I'm glad we agree on something.

Quote: kenarman

It must be terrible to go through life with such a jaded view of humanity Padre. No wonder you need support from God, Jesus and the Church. What I get from your post on your position is that humanity is so terrible that only your particular God will keep anyone from being an abuser of the weak. The extension of that is that the only good people in the world are Christians. That appears the exact opposite of someone who should be always looking for the good in people.

I am always looking for and am finding the good in people. Whenever people live in accord with the commandments and teachings of Christ, whether they believe or not, it is easy to see our goodness and potential.
Are you so naive that you think without God or some higher guiding principles or morality that human beings would not abuse the weak? Even with these helps our human history is full of slavery, murder, abuse, oppression, and genocide. One of the most important things to understand about ourselves is that we tend to by ourselves be selfish and prideful. To doubt this is to simply be ignorant of reality. We need guidance and moral laws. I hope you don't see this as a negative view of the human person because the Good News is that God has come to guide us and help us recover our moral compass and redeem us.

Quote: FrGamble

I do NOT get my morality from the society we live in. In fact my morality is completely counter-cultural to society we live in. You couldn't be more wrong.

Your morality does come from
society, just like mine. I was
taught how to live here by
my parents and others in
authority. Just like you were.

Your morality is counter to
some parts of society, so
is mine. But we're pretty
much in lockstep with the
majority of law abiding
people.

Quote: FrGamble[/q

Are you so naive that you think without God or some higher guiding principles or morality that human beings would not abuse the weak?

Morality evolved over a long period,
like everything else. Morality isn't
'out there' somewhere, it's our
invention. Babies aren't born moral,
we teach them and they learn by
observation. You make this way
more complicated than it needs to be.

Quote: FrGamble

One of the most important things to understand about ourselves is that we tend to by ourselves be selfish and prideful. To doubt this is to simply be ignorant of reality. We need guidance and moral laws.

Without repeating my whole previous post I am actually quite devastated that a man of the cloth would have such a negative view of people. I have lived my whole life believing that most people I meet are honest, moral and good. Occasionally I am proven wrong but not often enough to want to change how I approach people. Expect people to be good and they usually will be. If you approach people with aggression and suspicion they will respond in kind. Maybe when you get to my age you will be able to moderate your extreme view of the evil of people after more experience.

I know not to cause harm to others because I know what pain (emotional and physical) feels like and do not want to cause that to another person. This is biological/chemical.

kenarman my friend you are greatly exaggerating my view of humanity. Thank God the Gospel and its values has so influenced society that indeed most people we meet do desire to be honest, moral, and good. Everyone is striving to do that and some are more successful than others. My point is that we are all broken, you know this and feel sometimes the tension even in yourself when you are tempted to do what you know is wrong or avoid doing what you know is good. I also agree with you that when you treat people with the kindness they demand as the men and women of infinite value and dignity people will usually respond in kind. I would never treat anyone with aggression or suspicion (except Evenbob, but he kind of deserves it).

Please don't get it twisted. Yes, humanity is flawed and wounded but we are called to love everyone, including our broken selves, and see the good in humanity. I am quite surprised that an intelligent person would not see that we have a tendency or temptation in us to do wrong. It is pretty universal and unmistakable, but it does not condemn us or make us totally depraved, thanks be to God we have the influence of religion to help us raise above our fallen nature to be the honest, moral, and good people we are created to be.

Quote: FrGamble

kenarman my friend you are greatly exaggerating my view of humanity. Thank God the Gospel and its values has so influenced society that indeed most people we meet do desire to be honest, moral, and good. Everyone is striving to do that and some are more successful than others. My point is that we are all broken, you know this and feel sometimes the tension even in yourself when you are tempted to do what you know is wrong or avoid doing what you know is good. I also agree with you that when you treat people with the kindness they demand as the men and women of infinite value and dignity people will usually respond in kind. I would never treat anyone with aggression or suspicion (except Evenbob, but he kind of deserves it).

Please don't get it twisted. Yes, humanity is flawed and wounded but we are called to love everyone, including our broken selves, and see the good in humanity. I am quite surprised that an intelligent person would not see that we have a tendency or temptation in us to do wrong. It is pretty universal and unmistakable, but it does not condemn us or make us totally depraved, thanks be to God we have the influence of religion to help us raise above our fallen nature to be the honest, moral, and good people we are created to be.

I guess we will just agree to disagree for now Padre. I have no doubt of the good that exists in all people that will usually rise to the top, with or without the help of religion.