First Principles

Quote: kenarman

Without repeating my whole previous post I am actually quite devastated that a man of the cloth would have such a negative view of people.

It's what he was taught to sell his
product. They drilled a negative
view of humanity into his head.
We're lost, we're broken, we're
we constantly want to do awful
things and fight off the temptation.
The only thing that will help our
pitiful lives is what he's selling.

It's no different that any door to
door salesman. First he creates
a need for his product in your
mind, then he convinces you it's
his product that will fill that need.

So he always presents a negative
view of humanity, we're all lost
without his ridiculous religion.
It's his job, he doesn't know any
better, don't hold it against him.

Bob, I kind of thought you were the one selling a negative view of humanity. I simply believe we are wounded and need help.

Quote: FrGamble

I simply believe we are wounded and need help.

I don't have a negative or positive
view, people are people. We're
animals, advanced to be sure, but
still animals. We're innately selfish,
egocentric, petty. We are also
empathetic, altrusitic, and kind
when we want to be. You paint
everybody as hopelessly lost and
bad and doomed if they aren't
in your specific belief
system. Silliness, for a guy as
smart as you are.

Quote: kenarman

Without repeating my whole previous post I am actually quite devastated that a man of the cloth would have such a negative view of people.

This is less a facet of FrG's personality and more a manifestation of the manipulation of religion.

You see it the Mormon's especially as they have weaponized it to a disgusting degree, but it's the same general psychology at play. The church plays the part of the Groomer. They're supportive, consoling, accepting (so long as you toe the line), welcoming; all the stuff you'd expect from family. Build and build until it IS a family. And then, they're loosed to "spread the Good word".

The church knows it's fruitless; cold calls don't result in f#$% all, and barging into people's homes does not engender "love". But it not the conversion that is being sought, that was never the point at all. It is in fact the rebuking which is the point. The awkwardness, the stress, the struggle, it's all a part of the grooming. Before long, regular ol psychology takes over subconsciously. In church I always feel warm and welcome and accepted. Outside? Scary, evil, and misguided. On the street I am ridiculed, but in church, I am Home. The church is the answer, it's all these others who are wrong!

When I get apoplectic in these discussions seemingly out of nowhere, it's this s#$% I'm thinking about.

Quote: Face

This is less a facet of FrG's personality and more a manifestation of the manipulation of religion.

You see it the Mormon's especially as they have weaponized it to a disgusting degree, but it's the same general psychology at play. The church plays the part of the Groomer. They're supportive, consoling, accepting (so long as you toe the line), welcoming; all the stuff you'd expect from family. Build and build until it IS a family. And then, they're loosed to "spread the Good word".

The church knows it's fruitless; cold calls don't result in f#$% all, and barging into people's homes does not engender "love". But it not the conversion that is being sought, that was never the point at all. It is in fact the rebuking which is the point. The awkwardness, the stress, the struggle, it's all a part of the grooming. Before long, regular ol psychology takes over subconsciously.
When I get apoplectic in these discussions seemingly out of nowhere, it's this s#$% I'm thinking about.

Holy crap, Face, what a great post. To the
point and you nailed it. This is exactly what
the cult mentality of organized religion is.
This is why atheism in 15th century EU
got you the killed. You we're beyond
grooming, you were a threat to the
very existence of the Church. You were a
virus and had to be stamped out before
you spread the disease to others.

Quote:

n church I always feel warm and welcome and accepted. Outside? Scary, evil, and misguided. On the street I am ridiculed, but in church, I am Home. The church is the answer, it's all these others who are wrong!

This is what FrG is always pushing. On
the inside, where he is, it's safe and
warm and bathed in the love of god
and Jesus. Outside where we are, it's
cold and nasty and confusing. Please
come inside, it's for your own good.

Religion is a nasty business, the most
insideous on earth. At least really
nasty things don't try and trick you, they're
upfront about what they are. Religion
is slimy and swarmy and every evil
patent medicine salesman all rolled
into one.

FrG is a nice guy, it's the profession
he's chosen I have trouble with. My
ex priest friend Ed saw what it was
from the inside and got out. His
last year as a priest was not a good
one, he was asking way too many
questions that priests aren't supposed
to ask. He's now an atheist.

I must really be bamboozled and hoodwinked I tell you.

For what it is worth I don't think those outside thw Church are cold, mean, and awful people. We've all talked many times that many atheists or people of other faiths are morally good and happy people. Myself and dare I say the Church is not trying to set up some insidious us vs. them scenario.

Finally in regards to Face's observations. I wonder if the same critque could be made against any group trying to form a loving community. It might not be as diabolical as you and Evenbob seem to think, at least I hope not.

Quote: FrGamble

I must really be bamboozled and hoodwinked I tell you.

That's how Ed felt, that he had
been tricked. When he realized
the truth, he had to get out. To
this day he has contempt for
himself that he was ever that
gullible and wasted so much
time.

Quote:

For what it is worth I don't think those outside thw Church are cold, mean, and awful people.

Yet, yet, that's exactly the impression
you give. That we're on the horrible
outside and you're on the warm and
comfortable inside looking out at us
in pity. Every time you say all god wants
is to love you and be your friend,
it's you thumbing your nose at us
because we aren't in the club and
you are. It's no different than the
vacuum cleaner salesman pointing
out that all your neighbors have
one and are super happy. Don't
you want to be super happy too?

Well, the jokes on you. There is no god,
your club is an empty shell. Oh well..

Bob, if that is how you feel when I talk about God's love I would implore you to ask yourself why you feel that way. It seems honestly more some issue you might have then something I am causing, at least intentionally. I've said many times God's love is not an exclusive club, He loves you too. You seem to at the same time laugh about this and try to comfort and convince yourself desperately that there is no God and at the same time you are angry that you don't knowbthis love. You have to jettison one of your thoughts here. You have to stop writing off and mocking faith if you want to experience God's love or you have to stop wanting it and getting upset it is not yours. Take it from experience the only option that is possible is the first one.

Quote: FrGamble

Take it from experience the only option that is possible is the first one.

The used car salesman gambit
again, you never quit. Every
salesman who believes in his
product thinks he's doing the
buyer a huge favor, he's
improving their lives. That's
you and your religion. On
top of that, you have no real
product to sell. All you have is
an idea, a myth. You have no
proof any of it is real.

At least after you buy the new
vacuum you have something
to show for it. With religion
you have diddly squat. A few
promises and a bunch of other
suckers like you that you're
forced to pal around with.
Oh boy..

Boy, you must think me and my fellow priests are amazing salesmen. Imagine selling a nothing burger, a lemon, and a vacuum cleaner you don't even think exists for some 2,000 years and having billions of happy customers. How do you explain that?