First Principles

January 29th, 2020 at 6:50:07 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Sounds about right since there is a God. Your problem is that you feel that belief in God is juvenile so you can't see your way past it. I think it is childish to think that it is all about you and to not have something greater than just yourself and your own opinions to guide you. In fact it sounds like a 2 year old I know.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 29th, 2020 at 10:06:43 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
that it is all about you and to not have something greater than just yourself and your own opinions to guide you.


I have the sound wisdom of great
men from the past, and present,
to guide me. So you're saying
because there is a god in your
reality, it's OK to be totally
dependent on him, and encourage
others to be codependent to the
point where they can't even
function on their own without
their god crutch.

Pleasing a codependent God: This is a belief that God’s very nature, whether he is happy or not; can be swayed by personal behavior. For instance, “God is very angry should you sin;” or “God is very happy when you did that good thing for a friend.” The reality that every action is watched and dictated by a divine spy who has the power of annihilation and is ever-watchful at every minute activity would stress anyone out. It is a magnification of trying to please one’s boss at all times whilst having him/her watch over you 24/7. Hence, this belief leads to the insanity of religious codependence as life would be taken over by the fear of “not being good enough”.

Isn't this what you preach all the
time? We're broken, we're flawed,
we're far from perfection. But god
loves us, wants us to behave
and do his will and all will be fine.
It's almost a Xtion mantra that
'we're never good enough'. This
kind of thinking keeps people
constantly on edge, which is
exactly where the Church wants
them.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 30th, 2020 at 6:41:10 AM permalink
toomuch
Member since: Dec 30, 2019
Threads: 0
Posts: 22
Well, as someone here already more or less stated, it's great not to have to read any more of this (subjective) drivel. Off to find a more interesting discussion about the philosophies of love, and God.
Were there a God, per se, then there wouldn't be any atheists, to begin with.
January 30th, 2020 at 5:57:07 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
So you're saying
because there is a god in your
reality, it's OK to be totally
dependent on him,


I'm saying there is a God and of course it's okay, in fact it is perfectly reasonable and required to be totally dependent on Him. You are too even though you don't recognize it.


Quote:
Isn't this what you preach all the
time? We're broken, we're flawed,
we're far from perfection.


This is a fact, you would have to deny reality to disagree. Do you not think we are far from perfection?

Quote:
But god
loves us,


One of the most true and important things you have ever said.


Quote:
and do his will and all will be fine.


and do His will and you will have to carry your cross. God never promises all will be fine in this world, in fact He promises the opposite.


Quote:
It's almost a Xtion mantra that
'we're never good enough'. This
kind of thinking keeps people
constantly on edge,


You need to explain how the idea that "we are never good enough and yet God loves us no matter what" leads people to be constantly on edge.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 30th, 2020 at 9:12:36 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I'm saying there is a God and of course it's okay, in fact it is perfectly reasonable and required to be totally dependent on Him.


You are not dependent on God, there is no God.
You are depending on your religion, which is a
totally different thing. You are dependent on your
organization, just like a career military man is
dependent on his organization. You're codependent,
you can't function without your organization to prop you up.

Quote:
This is a fact, you would have to deny reality to disagree.


It may be a fact in your subliminal reality, it's not a fact
in mine. I'm not broken, I'm not flawed. You tell
people they are, you make people think they are,
because then you can sell them your magic potion.

Quote:
You need to explain how the idea that "we are never good enough and


When you constantly tell someone they are
not good enough, that they will never be
good enough, yet they are still loved, this
creates anxiety. It creates a dependence on
the person telling them this. It robs them of
their self confidence and sets up a codependent
relationship. Which is of course the intent. It
gives you control over that person, which is
what religion is all about. Control.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 31st, 2020 at 6:00:39 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob

I'm not broken, I'm not flawed.


Yes you are.



Quote:
When you constantly tell someone they are
not good enough, that they will never be
good enough, yet they are still loved, this
creates anxiety.


I asked you to explain why this is and you just repeat your statement word for word? Let me help you. Don't you think acceptance of the fact that you are loved not because you are perfect is freeing. It eliminates the need to think I am only valuable for what I do. You don't have to desperately try to earn love or respect, I ask you what could be more freeing than that? You are loved because of who you are not because you did this or that. You are also loved even if you did this or that. Do you still think this causes anxiety? If so please don't just repeat it but back up what you say with some words.

Quote:
It creates a dependence on
the person telling them this.


Again it is the opposite. It creates a dependence of God and God alone. In fact the person telling them this is not the savior he is only a fellow hungry person who knows where the bread is. Don't you see that the Gospel makes us all equal, All have fallen short of the Glory of God, and all of us are loved by God. Christianity frees us from dependence on any person and allows us to trust in and love God.

Quote:
It robs them of
their self confidence and sets up a codependent
relationship. Which is of course the intent. It
gives you control over that person, which is
what religion is all about. Control.


This is obviously some kind of reflection on the sick experience you have had but if you seriously read the above I hope you know that it is not Christianity, in fact Christianity is the opposite of what you describe.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 31st, 2020 at 11:08:36 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
I'm not broken, I'm not flawed.

Quote: FrGamble
Yes you are.


Lol, what a poor therapist you'd make.
You're such a negative person. All of
a sudden I'm glad priests are not
allowed to have kids. What an awful
parent they'd make. Totally trash a
kids self confidence by telling him how
broken and flawed he is every day.

Quote:
Don't you think acceptance of the fact that you are loved


Only when it's presented by not
telling the person how screwed
up he is first. How long do you
think any relationship will last
if you keep telling the friend/spouse/
kid, look, you're really messed up,
you have so many flaws, but I'm
going to love you anyway. It
breeds immediate resentment. You
get away with it because you're
literally a father figure to people,
they even call you that. You can
get away with demeaning and
belittling them.

Quote:
Again it is the opposite. It creates a dependence of God and God alone.


But they see no god standing there,
they see you making them dependent
on you. Surely you see that.

"It robs them of
their self confidence and sets up a codependent
relationship. Which is of course the intent. It
gives you control over that person, which is
what religion is all about. Control."

Quote:
I hope you know that it is not Christianity, in fact Christianity is the opposite of what you describe.


In fact Xtionity is the epitome of what
I described. It's totally about control.
To the point that in the bad old days
they forced people to convert or die.
Why do you think they started the
demeaning practice of confession.
Being forced to tell the priest every
embarrassing thought you had that
week. This sets up a codependent
relationship and gives the Church
a huge amount of control. Ever read
about Catholics who haven't been
to confession in years, and then go,
and feel a huge relief afterwards?
That's because they were trained
at early age to have this codependent
relationship and they feel huge
guilt when they stay away.

I guarantee I would feel loathing
and resentment if I was forced
to give confession. My business
is mine and not some strangers
hiding in a booth behind a screen.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 31st, 2020 at 7:25:09 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
I'm not broken, I'm not flawed.


Well your answers below very much are.


Quote:
You're such a negative person.


You are truly the first person ever to say this to me. I take comfort in the fact that not only are you wrong, but you have no idea what you are talking about! You think telling someone they aren't perfect, but loved unconditionally is the same thing as trashing them?!? Do you think it is bad parenting to say to a child when they mess up that they are still loved. You have also heard me say many times that while sinful we are made for greatness. I am constantly boosting peoples confidence and telling them that they are loved and great in God's eyes and they don't have to worry or be anxious about being perfect. What is wrong with that?



Quote:
How long do you
think any relationship will last
if you keep telling the friend/spouse/
kid, look, you're really messed up,
you have so many flaws, but I'm
going to love you anyway.


Forever. In fact without your negative tone at the end you basically quoted the universal marriage vows. "In good times and in bad, in sickness and in health, I will love you and honor you all the days of my life." How in your mind can you get things so screwed up? Relationships are built on forgiveness and loving people in particular in their weaknesses and through their struggles.

Quote:
It breeds immediate resentment.


You couldn't be more wrong. Telling someone you love them even with their imperfections and that you see the amazing person they truly are all the time is the best thing someone could say to you. As above it is what you say when you marry someone and it is what God says to us all.



Quote:
But they see no god standing there,
they see you making them dependent
on you.


So you think they mistake the person telling them about God to be God?



Quote:
In fact Xtionity is the epitome of what
I described. It's totally about control.
To the point that in the bad old days
they forced people to convert or die.


More lies and ignorance.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 31st, 2020 at 9:20:36 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You are truly the first person ever to say this to me.


No I'm not. Somebody here said
it to you a couple weeks ago,
Mosca or Dalex, maybe. I could
find it if you like.

Quote:
Relationships are built on forgiveness and loving people


I'll tell you what they aren't built
on, telling people they're broken
and flawed. That just breeds
resentment and contempt. When
you talk that way to people
you're putting yourself on a
pedestal above them, even if
you say you're broken and flawed
yourself. Unless you were asked,
you have overstepped your
boundaries

Quote:
Telling someone you love them even with their imperfections


The best way to lose someone in
a relationship is to tell them everything
that's wrong with them, but you still love
them anyway. Who wants to be around
somebody that does that. It's a control
issue, people who do that are trying to control you.

Quote:
More lies and ignorance.


So you think forced conversion is
a lie. This is pope Innocent III in 1201:

"One who is drawn to Christianity by violence, through fear and through torture, and receives the sacrament of Baptism in order to avoid loss, he does receive the impress of Christianity, and may be forced to observe the Christian Faith as one who expressed a conditional willingness though, absolutely speaking, he was unwilling." Chazan, Robert, ed., Church, State, and Jew in the Middle Ages, West Orange, NJ:Behrman House, 1980, p. 103

In other words, if someone agreed
to be baptized to avoid torture and
intimidation, they are still compelled
to outwardly observe Christianity even
though they were intimidated into
conversion.
And this is a religion you willingly
participate in and defend. Shame on
you.

I notice you blocked me again rather
than answer my question about
'idiot atheists'. Blocking me speaks
volumes about who you are.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 1st, 2020 at 12:23:43 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: FrGamble
Yes you are.





I asked you to explain why this is and you just repeat your statement word for word? Let me help you. Don't you think acceptance of the fact that you are loved not because you are perfect is freeing. It eliminates the need to think I am only valuable for what I do. You don't have to desperately try to earn love or respect, I ask you what could be more freeing than that? You are loved because of who you are not because you did this or that. You are also loved even if you did this or that. Do you still think this causes anxiety? If so please don't just repeat it but back up what you say with some words.



Again it is the opposite. It creates a dependence of God and God alone. In fact the person telling them this is not the savior he is only a fellow hungry person who knows where the bread is. Don't you see that the Gospel makes us all equal, All have fallen short of the Glory of God, and all of us are loved by God. Christianity frees us from dependence on any person and allows us to trust in and love God.



This is obviously some kind of reflection on the sick experience you have had but if you seriously read the above I hope you know that it is not Christianity, in fact Christianity is the opposite of what you describe.
Do you think a parent should tell their children they are flawed and broken?
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW