First Principles

Quote: FrGamble

Wait whose perspective or circumstances? I don't think you are really thinking through what you are saying. Do you really think raping and murdering someone could be a good and moral thing to do? I just want to make sure I am hearing you right?!? What would those situations or circumstances be? Do you think the one being raped and killed would agree with you?

I don't understand what morality is so i am not saying it would be moral.

Is murdering a person to save the lives of countless others bad? I think it could be looked at either way as good or bad.

Quote: FrGamble

evil actions are never good in themselves but good things can come from them.

You're saying the same thing I
am. There is no true good or
evil, it's just all part of the same
equation. Good on one side
of the coin and evil on the
other, but it's the same coin.

Quote: FrGamble

What kind of sick and twisted human nature do you think we have?!?

"As of 2016, 2.3 million people were incarcerated in the United States, at a rate of 698 people per 100,000. Total US incarceration peaked in 2008. Total correctional population (prison, jail, probation, parole) peaked in 2007. In 2008 the US had around 24.7% of the world's 9.8 million prisoners." Wiki

That is just US numbers, that is the human nature that I think we have.

Quote:

We are called to greatness and full of potential for heroic and loving acts. You cannot just chalk up rape and murder to human nature - it is not human nature! It is the nature of beasts and animals.

If it wasn't something that was going to enter the mind of man, why would there be warnings about it in the bible? Why would the writers of the bible warn people not to murder and steal, if the possibility of those thoughts wouldn't naturally appear in "sinners" thoughts?

Quote: FrGamble

So who is right in this situation. Are the woman right or are the soldiers?

We didn't stumble on human rights,
they weren't lurking behind a tree
waiting to be discovered. We evolved
into them. The only way you could
have a volunteer army for thousands
of years was to give soldiers the right
to rape and plunder. To rape the enemy
women and steal whatever they
could to enrich themselves. Was it
right?

"We treat our ability to distinguish between “right” and “wrong” as gospel despite the fact that “right” and “wrong” has changed so much across time and cultures.
That’s because morality — our ability to separate right from wrong — doesn’t really exist. It’s important to separate things that actually exist in reality from concepts that only exist in our minds because morality — principles distinguishing right from wrong — falls squarely in the latter category. And like all concepts that only exist in our minds, our sense of morality isn’t bound by rational natural laws, but by our irrational fickle brains. We don’t determine right and wrong based off a set of unwavering principles like those found in nature. This is why our position on moral topics can feel conflicted and change day-to-day. This is also why slavery was morally acceptable hundreds of years ago but no longer is today. The concept of morality lives entirely in our heads so when our beliefs about how to treat other humans changed, our view on slavery changed as well."

https://medium.com/the-mission/right-and-wrong-dont-exist-7045eefbdfec

Quote: petroglyph

"As of 2016, 2.3 million people were incarcerated in the United States, at a rate of 698 people per 100,000. Total US incarceration peaked in 2008. Total correctional population (prison, jail, probation, parole) peaked in 2007. In 2008 the US had around 24.7% of the world's 9.8 million prisoners." Wiki

That is just US numbers, that is the human nature that I think we have.

If it wasn't something that was going to enter the mind of man, why would there be warnings about it in the bible? Why would the writers of the bible warn people not to murder and steal, if the possibility of those thoughts wouldn't naturally appear in "sinners" thoughts?

True enough human nature is wounded and we need warnings and help to do good. However, it is in our nature to seek after the good and want to be better.

Quote: FrGamble

True enough human nature is wounded and we need warnings and help to do good. However, it is in our nature to seek after the good and want to be better.

If you believe human nature is wounded, what time period would you like to revert to? When were the good ole days?

I do believe there was a time before the disastrous fall of humanity when our created nature was not wounded and prideful. This is going way back, to the very beginning.

Quote: FrGamble

Actually God is not a big fan of slavers, oppressors, and those who exploit widows, orphans, and foreigners. That is the common thread of the OT and the history of Israel.

Perhaps God should not have brought such people into being.

Quote:

I think eternal happiness is more akin to father embracing his kid when he is hurt and promising him that there is always hope.

Oh, so lying? Besides that, there shouldn't have to be hope. If your version of God is correct, then he could change everything for the better and eliminate all human suffering anytime he wants to.

Suppose I draw a picture and it looks like crap; I guess I should learn to be better at drawing. If God really does exist, he should wipe this entire existence out with none of us any the wiser and start over.

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Free will is always an interesting discussion. Suffice it to say that because someone might know what you will do does not mean that you don't have freedom. It doesn't change your decisions or choices if God knows outside of time what you will do.

I agree with that, except in cases where that someone literally created me and knew everything I was ever going to do ahead of time. That's the main problem with your religion. You can't make God responsible for anything...just can't bring yourselves to do it. It's always some sort of human failing due to the fact that various people, by their actions, use the free will to, "Turn away from God."

But, guess what---he created us (individually and collectively) already knowing we would fail---if he even exists at all. Those of us who do fail, assuming he exists, could not have done otherwise. Fatalistic determinism at its finest.

What you don't understand is that, if God exists, everything wrong with the world can ONLY be his fault. How can we be the ones who failed when, individually, we can change very little and he could change everything in less than an instant if he wanted to?

Quite frankly, I don't know what's more sad: That Christians fervently believe in God, or that they simultaneously love him. He should be public enemy #1.

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Do you create and sustain someone's life and even give your life for them without any conditions only with the hope that they will use their freedom to respond in grateful love to their creator. What would the humane society advise if you do everything you can to love your dog and all it does is ignore, misbehave, fight, and attack? It is a good thing God is much more merciful and infinitely loving.

He didn't give a damn thing. Even if every word of the New Testament is true, Jesus Christ is the biggest cop out in the history of cop outs. Proves God sucked at his one job...and still continues to suck at it.

And, why should I be grateful? Because I exist? Yeah, thanks a lot, @$$hole. I wasn't given a choice as to whether or not I wanted to exist and, if I wanted to play by his rules, suicide would have some pretty serious consequences over and above the mere dying.

One nice thing about not believing in God...I at least have some element of REAL choice in continuing to live. When I decide it's my time, then that's what will happen. Don't have to keep running on the hamster wheel for his amusement when I'd rather jump out of the cage.

Quote: Mission146

One nice thing about not believing in God...I at least have some element of REAL choice .

Xtians are always talking about
free will when they've boxed
themselves into a corner with no
choice if they want to continue
being god believers. They can't
even choose suicide because of the
threat of hell forever. Jews are
are far more realistic. They don't
believe in punishment or reward
after death, they believe the rewards
are in the here and now. This
has made them the most productive
people on the planet.

Quote: Mission146

I agree with that, except in cases where that someone literally created me and knew everything I was ever going to do ahead of time. That's the main problem with your religion. You can't make God responsible for anything...just can't bring yourselves to do it. It's always some sort of human failing due to the fact that various people, by their actions, use the free will to, "Turn away from God."

But, guess what---he created us (individually and collectively) already knowing we would fail---if he even exists at all. Those of us who do fail, assuming he exists, could not have done otherwise. Fatalistic determinism at its finest.

What you don't understand is that, if God exists, everything wrong with the world can ONLY be his fault. How can we be the ones who failed when, individually, we can change very little and he could change everything in less than an instant if he wanted to?

Quite frankly, I don't know what's more sad: That Christians fervently believe in God, or that they simultaneously love him. He should be public enemy #1.

You seem quite sure that you know that God knows you and others will fail. How do you know that? Have you made up your mind and set your will irrevocably against God. That seems quite fatalistic on your part. You have free will and whatever God knows outside of time and matter does not effect at all your choices. You don't have to "fail", we all don't have to fail. We can chose to live good and holy lives and acknowledge and love our creator. It seems like that would be a better option and lead to a better result than calling Him public enemy #1. It seems to me that we are our own worst enemies. How is it God's fault that we choose to reject Him? He is not forcing you to do so. If God did force you to reject Him or to love Him then He would be a tyrant and not a loving father.

You and I can change a great deal, in fact God is depending on all of us to change ourselves and our world for the better. What you don't understand is that God knowing everything is why He desires us to follow the laws and guidance He set up. Everything wrong with the world can ONLY be our fault for choosing not to do so. If your car says it only runs on unleaded fuel and you decide to pour sugar into the gas tank, that is not the fault of the maker of the car but the one who is giving the responsibility of running it.