First Principles

Quote: Evenbob

So god, who sits outside of time,
created us in his own image, for
what reason? .

To love us and have us love Him. I don't know if it quite fits the egomaniac persona to want to love and to be loved. Seems kind of healthy to me. Do you not want to be loved and to love?

In regards to not following God or else we are screwed? Well, yeah kind of. God is infinitely merciful and understanding but the sad truth you and I have to face is that we are not God. He wants to help us and has shown us the way, but ultimately we have to choose. If we keep choosing to do things against God and to hate others and cause harm, yeah we kind of screw up our lives and the world. That is the way it is, sorry.

Quote: Mission146

That's right. That's why I said, when we get into God's perspective, I've always done it. I could do nothing but that thing. It's a fixed event, from his view, just as all events are fixed events. That's the illusion of choice. For you to be right, we perceive ourselves as having choice where none exists.

Why do you insist on wanting to have God's perspective? You are a human being and from your perspective and mine we truly have choice and freedom. We do also have that freedom and choice from God's perspective as well because I don't think you or I truly can understand what being outside of time really means.

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I don't see why you wouldn't create a perfect world. I mean, I do...original sin...but he also knew that Eve would eat the apple, didn't he? It's really pretty simple: If you accept everything as true, then we were fairly screwed from the words, "Let there be light."

He did create and perfect world and still offers to us a perfect world, that is our destiny and the fulfillment of our greatest hope. We were fairly screwed from the first sin. Yet God always had a plan to save us and return us to paradise. Maybe that is part of the issue here. If all you think about is happiness here then you are not thinking big enough to understand God.

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I'm not sure how, but by some means we don't arrive at the same conclusion that he created us to do it. If a person rejects God, then God already knew that person would do that. Created that person anyway. Condemns the person to hell for doing what God knew he was going to do before the person entered the mortal coil. Again, from God's perspective, it has always happened and nothing else could be the case.

The key here is that you are not thinking of it from the only perspective that makes sense to us. The condemned person in their own free life full of actual and real choices they made was not forced to do anything. Again you seem to be condemning God for His omniscience and angry that He didn't force us to do exactly as God commands.

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On the other hand, he could just not create you since he already knows what the result will be. Where you see choice, I see wind-up dolls executing a pre-programmed series of moves. If you had a non-omniscient God, then free will could simultaneously exist. That would be a matter of God setting up certain initial boundary conditions for a person and then everything after is somewhat random.

The problem is that you think God sees us as, "executing a pre-programmed series of moves." That is not a perspective outside of time. That is a linear conception of what you think it must look like to God. Again, God doesn't see past or future, but all at once.

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Failure by design. God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit, created them anyway. That's tantamount to programming them to do it. When it comes to living robots, there's no functional difference if everything is (from our perspective) predetermined anyway.

From our perspective nothing is predetermined, that is an important point. Another important point is that God is seeing how even in our sins, stubbornness, hate, rebellion, etc. that we are still saved (like Adam and Eve were). God's plan is not undone by our mistakes and poor choices, He forgives and brings about repentance and conversion through our faults. You seem to want to see the big picture as God sees it; well then you have to widen your vision a lot further than just our mistakes and see how even these things in God's plan can lead to our glorious salvation.

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Let me tell you about the Discover Card.

That is a good deal and like any good deal I will consider it. I like my deal even better and I hope you consider it.

Quote: FrGamble

To love us and have us love Him. I don't know if it quite fits the egomaniac persona to want to love and to be loved. Seems kind of healthy to me.

Creating other beings and then telling
them to do things your way or be punished
forever is your idea of healthy? What the
heck is your idea of unhealthy. Healthy
would be, tell your created beings do
whatever you like, there is no punishment
or reward. Your way is terrible.

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He wants to help us and has shown us the way

No. Your Church wants to control people
so they invented a way to do it and
put the blame on a scapegoat god.
Your Church is all about control, but
you can't see it because they have
cleverly changed the word 'control'
to the word 'love'. Do this or that,
think this and not that, behave
in a certain way because we love
(want to control) you. When an
off the wall cult does it you see
it immediately. When your Church
does it, they have conditioned you
to see it differently. From the
outside, where I am, this is crystal
clear.

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That is the way it is, sorry.

Speak for yourself, don't include
me in it. Reality is much more
mundane than you think it us.
Life is mostly routine and boring,
that's why we invented entertainment,
to relieve the boredom. What happens
when you die is no more exciting
than it is being here now. In fact
it's just more of the same.

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God doesn't see past or future, but all at once.

Then your god isn't like us at
all. You weren't created in his
likeness and image. We watch
a football game because we
don't know the ending. We
watch a movie or read a book for
the same reason. This has never
made sense to me that Christians
feel this way. If God can see
the beginning the middle and
the end all at once, why would
he need to have a plan for you.
He would only need a plan if he
had no idea what was going to
happen.

It would be a much better story
for the myth to be in real time,
not have it be a foregone
conclusion.

Quote: FrGamble

Why do you insist on wanting to have God's perspective? You are a human being and from your perspective and mine we truly have choice and freedom. We do also have that freedom and choice from God's perspective as well because I don't think you or I truly can understand what being outside of time really means.

The assumption being that perspective would change the reality, which it doesn't. Reality is reality. Easy example: If I say that I do not believe in God, then you would counter by saying that God (as you define him) exists. Thus, my perspective is he does not, your perspective is he does...and, in reality, only one of those two things can be true. Perspective might inform thoughts and actions, but perspective does not change physical or metaphysical reality.

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He did create and perfect world and still offers to us a perfect world, that is our destiny and the fulfillment of our greatest hope. We were fairly screwed from the first sin. Yet God always had a plan to save us and return us to paradise. Maybe that is part of the issue here. If all you think about is happiness here then you are not thinking big enough to understand God.

But, eternity is a long friggin' time and I wouldn't want to live forever anyway. Why would God need a, "Plan," for that anyway? Why not just do it?

And, doesn't it say something that such is the big sell for most Abrahamic denominations? That's the carrot that you guys have to dangle to keep the mules a-plowing. Reward v. Punishment. No other meaningful selling point.

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The key here is that you are not thinking of it from the only perspective that makes sense to us. The condemned person in their own free life full of actual and real choices they made was not forced to do anything. Again you seem to be condemning God for His omniscience and angry that He didn't force us to do exactly as God commands.

Why is that the only perspective that makes sense to me? I can look at things, or attempt to, from any perspective that I feel like at any given time. It would be a serious problem if you had to concede that, from God's perspective, the person has always done what the person has done. Now, you have to account for why would God create the person knowing this and that the person's destiny---and this is from the linear perspective of the person---was always to be punished eternally.

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The problem is that you think God sees us as, "executing a pre-programmed series of moves." That is not a perspective outside of time. That is a linear conception of what you think it must look like to God. Again, God doesn't see past or future, but all at once.

That's what I keep saying, from God's perspective, it has always happened. As with all other things, it always is and always was. We experience time in a linear way, though.

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From our perspective nothing is predetermined, that is an important point. Another important point is that God is seeing how even in our sins, stubbornness, hate, rebellion, etc. that we are still saved (like Adam and Eve were). God's plan is not undone by our mistakes and poor choices, He forgives and brings about repentance and conversion through our faults. You seem to want to see the big picture as God sees it; well then you have to widen your vision a lot further than just our mistakes and see how even these things in God's plan can lead to our glorious salvation.

It's not an important point because our perspectives do nothing to change the case in fact-reality. The only thing that matters is whether or not there was an actual choice not whether or not we can be tricked into believing there was. In any case, I have no interest in, "Our glorious salvation." I don't believe in God anyway, but if he is out there, then I hope only for the mercy of nonexistence after death.

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That is a good deal and like any good deal I will consider it. I like my deal even better and I hope you consider it.

Already have done.

Quote: Evenbob

Creating other beings and then telling
them to do things your way or be punished
forever is your idea of healthy? What the
heck is your idea of unhealthy. Healthy
would be, tell your created beings do
whatever you like, there is no punishment
or reward. Your way is terrible.

Do you not consider the idea of a good father healthy? Telling people that they can do whatever they like with no consequences is not the best or most loving thing to do. Instead of a Heavenly Father you seem to want a heavenly irresponsible uncle.

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Then your god isn't like us at
all.

Very true and we are in agreement.

Quote: Mission146

The assumption being that perspective would change the reality, which it doesn't. Reality is reality. Easy example: If I say that I do not believe in God, then you would counter by saying that God (as you define him) exists. Thus, my perspective is he does not, your perspective is he does...and, in reality, only one of those two things can be true. Perspective might inform thoughts and actions, but perspective does not change physical or metaphysical reality.

First I want to acknowledge and agree with you in your condemnation of realitivism. Reality does not change with our perspective, you are correct. However, I think we are not just talking about a change in perspective between our lives in time and God's outside of time. This is a difference in metaphysical reality. Seeing all time at once is a different reality than living in time with a past, present, and future. You are trying to grasp God's omniscience with a mind that only understands linear time and I think that is the cause of a lot of the confusion. Try as we like we cannot escape time and trying to pretend to understand how God sees things outside of time is very hard if not impossible.

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But, eternity is a long friggin' time and I wouldn't want to live forever anyway. Why would God need a, "Plan," for that anyway? Why not just do it?

And, doesn't it say something that such is the big sell for most Abrahamic denominations? That's the carrot that you guys have to dangle to keep the mules a-plowing. Reward v. Punishment. No other meaningful selling point.

As to why God didn't just create us in Heaven I am not sure. My thought is that He did create us in a perfect paradise but needed to respect our free will. What you seem to be suggesting again is why doesn't God just force us to live perfectly in Heaven and love Him.

As to having no other meaningful selling point. You might have a point if following God's plan and guidance didn't have immediate blessings and help in the midst of our broken world. We don't follow God just to get into Heaven but because it is a right and healthy way of living right now.

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Why is that the only perspective that makes sense to me? I can look at things, or attempt to, from any perspective that I feel like at any given time. It would be a serious problem if you had to concede that, from God's perspective, the person has always done what the person has done. Now, you have to account for why would God create the person knowing this and that the person's destiny---and this is from the linear perspective of the person---was always to be punished eternally.

Big important questions that I don't have the answers to. However we have to remember that God loves everyone and creates them out of love. Even those who freely chose to reject Him and do evil they don't lose God's love and God does not condemn them, they chose how they live and the consequences.

Quote: FrGamble

DTelling people that they can do whatever they like with no consequences

I never said that. Jumping off
a cliff will always have
consequences. But the
thought of some god creating
beings and then monitoring
their every thought and action
to make sure they're obeying
all his rules is gross beyond
measure. Telling people that's
what's what's happening is a
way to control them, to keep
them in line. And it's working
less and less, more and more
of the world is becoming
secular by the day. This whole
BS of god loves you, but you
better never step out of line,
has been seen for the sham it
is. No good father would ever
tell that to his children. But
you're one of the official
controllers, you'll never see
it any other way than the one
you were brainwashed to see.

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Very true and we are in agreement.

So we were not made in gods likeness
and image then. Not surprised.

Quote: Evenbob

We didn't stumble on human rights,
they weren't lurking behind a tree
waiting to be discovered. We evolved
into them. The only way you could
have a volunteer army for thousands
of years was to give soldiers the right
to rape and plunder. To rape the enemy
women and steal whatever they
could to enrich themselves. Was it
right?

"We treat our ability to distinguish between “right” and “wrong” as gospel despite the fact that “right” and “wrong” has changed so much across time and cultures.
That’s because morality — our ability to separate right from wrong — doesn’t really exist. It’s important to separate things that actually exist in reality from concepts that only exist in our minds because morality — principles distinguishing right from wrong — falls squarely in the latter category. And like all concepts that only exist in our minds, our sense of morality isn’t bound by rational natural laws, but by our irrational fickle brains. We don’t determine right and wrong based off a set of unwavering principles like those found in nature. This is why our position on moral topics can feel conflicted and change day-to-day. This is also why slavery was morally acceptable hundreds of years ago but no longer is today. The concept of morality lives entirely in our heads so when our beliefs about how to treat other humans changed, our view on slavery changed as well."

https://medium.com/the-mission/right-and-wrong-dont-exist-7045eefbdfec

It's so odd that FrG won't respond
to this post. I've asked him several
times and he just ignores me. Have
we finally found a position he cannot
defend, so he just ignores it?

The quoted passage in the post is
pretty much what's been taught
in non religious colleges for
decades. It's what the Dershowitz
book was about. It's the truth
about where the concepts of
right and wrong and good and
evil come from. What was considered
right in Jesus time, might not be
considered right today. Because
right and wrong are always flowing
concepts, in line with the times
they exist in.

Quote: Evenbob

It's so odd that FrG won't respond
to this post.

Not much to respond to. You again are wrong or are greatly exaggerating and twisting history with your comments about thousands of years of armies. Where do you get such ridiculous stuff?

Why don't you answer the question you posed; is it right for armies to rape and plunder? Sure armies did it, some were even encouraged or allowed to do it, but does that make it right?

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The quoted passage in the post is
pretty much what's been taught
in non religious colleges for
decades. It's what the Dershowitz
book was about. It's the truth
about where the concepts of
right and wrong and good and
evil come from. What was considered
right in Jesus time, might not be
considered right today. Because
right and wrong are always flowing
concepts, in line with the times
they exist in.

Right and wrong are not flowing concepts and don't change. Our view of them (a very different thing) or our perception on them (again very different question) might change and evolve, but there has never been in a time in all human history where rape, lying, stealing, or murder have been good things. There just isn't and you need to wrestle with that. There have been sick cultures that allowed or even would support such things but that does not make it right. This seems so clear and it is worrying to me that you don't get it. You or I nor the culture itself can make the abuse of the elderly or children good things. That doesn't evolve or change.

Quote: Evenbob

I never said that.

I'm glad to hear it because it seemed like you were saying it is unhealthy for a father to set up rules and consequences for his children. You almost seemed to be saying it was healthy to just let people do whatever they felt like. I am glad you are not saying that.

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Jumping off
a cliff will always have
consequences.

So will lying and cheating.

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But the
thought of some god creating
beings and then monitoring
their every thought and action
to make sure they're obeying
all his rules is gross beyond
measure.

The more I hear you talk the more I realize you do not know God or at least understand at all the Christian idea of God. This is really an unsolvable problem for us if you won't believe me when I tell you that is not at all what we think of when we think of God and if you won't do any real honest learning on your own.

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This whole
BS of god loves you, but you
better never step out of line,
has been seen for the sham it
is. No good father would ever
tell that to his children.

Why do you think a good father would not say, "I love you and always will love you, but don't break the rules or their will be consequences."? Is that controlling or unhealthy. What if the father wants their children to study hard, nor stay up too late, and do their chores. Is that unreasonable or unloving?

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So we were not made in gods likeness
and image then. Not surprised.

We are made in the image and likeness of God but we are very different than God.