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First Principles
| January 5th, 2020 at 2:57:43 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I might doubt the existence of the Grand Canyon before I saw it or at least doubted its beauty. However, once you've seen it I don't know how you could doubt it? I'm curious as why you think unaided reason can't discover the reality of God? What do you find lacking in the cosmological argument or the argument of the first cause or unmoved mover? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 5th, 2020 at 3:31:21 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
Echo chambers create reality? The so-called, "Witches," did not have any real powers, regardless of whether or not people thought so. Merely thinking that they did does not cause that to become reality and nor is it a matter of perspective. At that point, it's nothing more than a matter of belief, because it's based only loosely on reality or not on reality at all. Kind of like God is a belief, and this notion of witches, more-or-less stemmed from their beliefs in God. Something that stems from a belief alone does not and cannot become reality, it's just a subsequent belief. "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 5th, 2020 at 3:38:33 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
I probably couldn't. If I PM you my address, can you come present visual proof of God and we can find out? Or, maybe not. I'd have to ask you to leave the room so I could say what I have to say to God and I have too much respect for you to want you to hear it. I didn't say that unaided reason could not do that. If God does, in fact, exist and your unaided reason led to that realization, then unaided reason has done exactly that. Since I don't know whether or not God exists, I don't know if it actually has. Do you know what the difference between myself and believers in God is? I'll illustrate: I might be wrong. That's the difference. I can stipulate that there might be a God. I can stipulate that I can not conclusively prove that there is not a God. I can have an academically and logically honest and consistent conversation about God. Heck, Padre, you could ask me to have a conversation predicated upon God being the case and I would be more than happy to oblige. I think such conversations can sometimes be interesting. I don't mind playing Devil's Advocate for God from time to time. I don't find anything lacking in the first cause argument. I find something lacking at some point between the premise of the argument and the conclusion at which you have arrived. Also, it makes necessary an uncaused cause to be the first cause...if that sentence gives you a headache, it should. For me, the only acceptable answer would probably start with these words, "I don't know, but I think..." "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 5th, 2020 at 4:42:16 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Really? Ya think? That's why it's called 'subjective reality'. Subjective means influenced by your personal opinion or beliefs. Subjective reality is the reality we create so we can live within the objective reality. To the person experiencing it, it's truth personified. It's very real, often more real to the person than objective reality is. It's why shrinks always have a shrink of their own. Listening to others spew all day about their different subjective realities can have a detrimental effect on the listener. Some of these people are very convincing and can cause confusion and disorientation in the doctors own subjective reality. I first came across these things in 1972 in a college seminar. It's fascinating stuff. You have to be careful who you discuss it with, some people almost violently cling to their idea that there is only one reality, their reality. Especially religious people. There is a god, by god, just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it's not true. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 5th, 2020 at 5:15:52 PM permalink | |
| Mission146 Administrator Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 23 Posts: 4147 |
Reality is reality. What you are calling, "Objective reality," is just reality. What you are calling, "Subjective reality," is a combination of several things including experience, perception, opinion and belief. There is not a different reality for every different person, every different person simply experiences and interprets the ONE reality differently.
More like they understand that conversation with like-minded folks will help them have a better grasp on what reality actually is.
There is only one reality, but it doesn't belong to me. I exist as a part of it, but it is not mine. It is not yours. It just is and the notion of, "Subjective reality," runs dangerously close to a totally flawed philosophy called, 'Solipsism,' and is a word that you should look up if you haven't. I am a part of reality at this time. When I die, I will no longer be a part of reality, though many fundamental components that, in totality, make me me will individually remain for a time. The fact that I once existed will remain a component of reality, but mostly for those who knew me. After 100-200 years, all traces of me will quite possibly be gone from reality. In some incredibly small, inconsequential and insignificant way, at that time, the fact that I once existed will have shaped what reality is. Or, maybe not. Maybe in 200 years that I once existed won't matter at all. I really don't care if it doesn't, so that thought is not terrifying and does not bother me whatsoever. Actually, much as a Christian takes comfort in God, I take comfort in my belief and opinion that there is absolutely nothing after I die, existence included. "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman |
| January 5th, 2020 at 7:32:20 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Excellent post Mission. For myself the weaknesses in all these arguments for God comes down to, "so what". It is possible with logic for anyone cone to exactly the point you are at. There might be a God and it even makes sense that there is. BUT, so what does it matter?!? That is the real question and if God is just an unknowable and all powerful force that explains why there is something rather than nothing that I don't care to worship or know that thing. The difference is that I have a real, felt, powerful, intimate, encouraging, forgiving, and loving relationship with God revealed through the person of Jesus Christ. I can no longer join you with the wish or intellectual excercise concerning if God exists or not. You might as well try to deny the existence of your best friend. No before this sounds too sappy, let me be clear that like in any real relationship there have been many rocky patches and a few times when I didn't care for my "friend". I've yelled and cried and said many of the things it sounds like you want to say. There is also nothing at all special about me. God desires this relationship with all of us. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 5th, 2020 at 8:11:55 PM permalink | |
| Fleastiff Member since: Oct 27, 2012 Threads: 62 Posts: 7831 | Most of us do not "know" something but we choose to accept it or at least not to contest it. I do not know the laws of aerodynamics but choose to believe that a wing generates lift particularly since I am flying right now. If something should happen to the wing, I do not know if there is a God, but I think I will pray on the way down. it is a choice made out of comfort not certainty. Such choices are personal and hardly a proper subject for intellectual inquiry by others. |
| January 5th, 2020 at 9:13:52 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
There is one real objective reality. You can take pics of it, measure it, feel it. Then there is the reality that is our interpretation of the objective reality, the one we filter thru our brain and all we've been taught, our opinions, our beliefs. We are able to alter our perceptions of objective reality to such a degree that we sometimes end up believing things that are totally not true. Like witches are real and have real powers. That's our 'subjective' reality that we layer over the objective reality. This is a very real thing, you cannot wave your hand and pooh pooh it away. I live in a world where randomness rules. When I get five green lights in a row, and a parking spot right next to the door at Walmart, it's all random. When my sister in law gets the same thing, she profusely thanks and praises Jesus because in her version of reality, he runs everything in her life. She believes this with every fiber of her being, she's a scary person. We all see the same objective reality with our eyes, but we all interpret it slightly or radically and that's the subjective reality we live in. You 'take comfort' in your belief that there is nothing after you die. That's your subjective reality, it certainly isn't mine. With all the breakthrough research being done on reincarnation since 1958 at the U of S Carolina, I simply can't ignore the facts that rebirths happen all the time, often with full past memories attached. It cannot be explained, only researched and reported on. If they perform the due diligence, even the loudest naysayers have been quieted. The peer reviewed evidence is irrefutable. Yet those with a subjective reality that won't allow such a thing, they will laugh and scoff and won't even investigate because it might tell them something they don't want to hear. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 5th, 2020 at 9:16:50 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Another great post and one that convicted me on my strong stance against atheism. There are many good reasons to be an atheist. However, saying their is no evidence or arguments for God is NOT one of them. I'm aware my personal experience of religion, while having lots of ups and downs, has not had the reality of abuse. I have never had someone use religion to hurt me or make me to feel inferior or unlovable. Others have and I don't want to or cannot ignore that. I also appreciate the honest admission that there are very precious few things we actually"know". “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 5th, 2020 at 9:23:17 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Real to you isn't real to me. Revel in it, roll around in it for joy, it's your subjective experience that you carefully feed and cultivate. Good for you. I don't see the point in it, I don't want or need it, it seems like a vast waste of time. Maybe that's the only thing you can come up with to make you happy, so you think it should be everybody's. It's not, there are plenty of subjective realities that are perfectly satisfying that don't have to invent a know it all god at the center of it. Just look around at all the perfectly happy secular people. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |