First Principles

Quote: FrGamble

So is everything just an opinion to you? Is there such a thing as Truth?

Everything subjective is just an
opinion, how could it be anything
else. There are no 'subjective
truths'. Belief in a god is purely
subjective.

Quote: Evenbob

Everything subjective is just an
opinion, how could it be anything
else. There are no 'subjective
truths'. Belief in a god is purely
subjective.

Does that mean disbelief in God is also purely subjective? Can someone's subjective belief be true? Can contradictory subjective beliefs both be true?

Quote: FrGamble

Does that mean disbelief in God is also purely subjective? Can someone's subjective belief be true? Can contradictory subjective beliefs both be true?

Subjective beliefs are true for the
person believing them. You
can't prove there is a god, I
can't prove there isn't. Because
I can't see any proof, I assume a
god does not exist. Why you
believe there is one is your
business. The problems come
when people force their
subjective beliefs on others.

Quote: Evenbob

Subjective beliefs are true for the
person believing them. You
can't prove there is a god, I
can't prove there isn't. Because
I can't see any proof, I assume a
god does not exist. Why you
believe there is one is your
business. The problems come
when people force their
subjective beliefs on others.

Who wrote the above post? I can say for sure it was not Evenbob. No seriously Bob, that is great and I appreciate everything you said above. I almost don't want to ask any further questions and just let your post here be the last word and a nice wrap up of a stormy and long, but interesting discussion over the years about religious faith and Catholic Christianity.

Quote: FrGamble

Who wrote the above post? I can say for sure it was not Evenbob. No seriously Bob, that is great

So you agree that god only exists
in your head? I've said the above
many times and it's finally sunk in?
A breakthrough!!!

Quote: Evenbob

So you agree that god only exists
in your head? I've said the above
many times and it's finally sunk in?
A breakthrough!!!

Ha! No, I believe in objective truth and think my belief is very much true and real even outside my own head. I am just really happy you acknowledge that your belief is subjective and in your own head and that neither of ours should be forced on anyone else.

Quote: FrGamble

Ha! No, I believe in objective truth and think my belief .

You can't take subjective reality
and pretend it's objective. It
doesn't work that way. If god
were objective everyone would
see it, and that's far from the
case. Get 100 people to describe
a tree and they would be pretty
much be the same. Do that with
god and you get 100 different
descriptions because god is only
in their heads and doesn't exist
in the objective world.

Quote: Evenbob

You can't take subjective reality
and pretend it's objective.

Since you believe you're beliefs are subjective reality I am again glad to hear you say that.

However, I think my beliefs are objective and true. I also think your test for objective truth doesn't work. Think about how many obviously objective things not everyone can see. If you have never seen a horse how would you see it? Yet a horse is an objective reality. A complicated math problem can be objectively true but only a handful of people can understand it. It might be that you think objective truths can only be physical things. What about love, justice, or truth itself? Finally if you asked 100 people to describe God I think you would have lots of variety, such as with trees, but the fundamental reality of God is easily understood by everyone.

Quote: FrGamble

Since you believe you're beliefs are subjective reality I am again glad to hear you say that.

I've said it many times, you were
never glad before.

Quote:

I think my beliefs are objective and true... the fundamental reality of God is easily understood by everyone.

Beliefs are never objective, you are
making a nonsensical statement.
Nobody 'believes' in a tree or a car,
they're right in front of you in the
objective universe. The
fundamental IDEA of god is
understood by lots of people.
Because it's subjective and just
an idea, details of that god
vary wildly.

Quote: Evenbob

The fundamental IDEA of god is
understood by lots of people.
Because it's subjective and just
an idea, details of that god
vary wildly.

Details about the fundamental idea of a tree differ greatly too. Does that make trees subjective and just an idea? How do we get the idea of God if there is no such thing? If there were no trees we wouldn't even be able to imagine one or have the idea. You also haven't answered if you think love, truth, or justice are real things.