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First Principles
| January 28th, 2021 at 12:27:33 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
None of which would be admitted in court as anything other than your opinion.
Well gosh, for something that you revolve your entire life around, does it seem a lot ask? Just a teeny tiny bit of actual proof before I commit my ENTIRE LIFE to an idea? Some guy wants to sell you a truck for $10K, but you can't see it first. He doesn't even have a pic of it. He doesn't know where it is, but he believe it exists. You gonna buy that truck? You would have to be a fool to do so.
That's because you CANNOT define it, and you know it. All you can do is talk around it, accuse others of looking for it in the wrong places. You only think you have found that mysterious 'truth' because people you respect have told you that you have. You mention 'truth' all the time, yet when pinned down cannot define it. The Eastern sages have it right. If you think you've found truth, you haven't. If you can talk about what it is, you don't have it. Real truth can only be experienced, it can't be thought about, or talked about or taught. A zen master will say all he can do is point, words are useless. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 28th, 2021 at 6:20:15 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Are the science labs and courtrooms your gold standard for determining the truth? They are good indicators and reliable for sure, but can be wrong too. Expert testimony, logic, history, science, personal and eyewitness testimony, all are admitted in court I think.
Do you really think your story about buying a truck is analogous to me and other believers? That is ridiculous. You are right that when such an important ideas that you are willing to commit your life to come around there has to be lots of evidence and reason behind making such a decision. Think about marriage, you wouldn't make that commitment if you weren't sure that this was the person you wanted to spend the rest of your life with and raise children with. However, you won't ever have mathematical certainty or see their truthfulness and faithfulness in a blood test. Does that mean you shouldn't ever get married or love someone? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 28th, 2021 at 7:48:58 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
It's a start. Science proves there's a god and you go from there. You don't just proclaim a god exists and leave all that wascally proof out of it.
I absolutely do. Believing in a god is like buying a pig in a poke. You're buying a story, you're putting faith in the seller. People believe in god because they want to, not because the evidence is so overwhelming they have no choice. There is no real evidence, so you have a huge chunk of faith that you're right.
Bad choice for an analogy, people make bad decisions about marriage every day. They get blinded by lust, or pressured by family into choosing people totally wrong for them. Half of marriages end in divorce for a reason. Everybody has a reason for believing in god. And not a single one of them is because it's so obvious they have no choice. I remember when I was a Xtian they were always taking random events and giving god the credit and then being amazed at how powerful god was. They just pretended god was behind the event and believed their own illusion. It's like throwing a ball in the air & being amazed that gravity made it fall on the ground. It is kind of amazing but we know gravity is a physical law so we take it for granted it will fall. If people really truly believed in a god, they would take for granted what he does, like we take gravity for granted. But because they really don't believe there is a god, they are constantly looking for proof, even if they have to make it up. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 29th, 2021 at 8:28:59 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
The problem is science cannot prove there is a God. It can and does provide evidence that there is a God, but how could something based entirely on physical observation and measurement prove the supernatural and immeasurable? Again there are other ways to come to know the truth about God. Science is necessary and helpful but for many reasons not the only way to God or to many other truths. I think you keep using proof when you mean evidence. Evidence mounts and leads to reasonable conclusions and certain truths, but the way I understand proof is really only in the world of mathematics or pure logic. I don't think there is anything in your life that you believe that you can prove in that sense. We don't want to set up an inhuman and unreasonable requirement for our beliefs.
I actually agree with this part and it goes for atheists and theists alike.
I think it is a good analogy and you are right these things do happen all the time but again the other option is just to never fall in love. We have a responsibility to use all our facilities and abilities to make good decisions, to not be blinded by our passions, or pressured by others. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 29th, 2021 at 9:23:55 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Really? Down this barren road again for the upteenth time? If this were true there would be no atheists. Your idea of 'evidence' is not the correct definition.
They want to believe so they see 'evidence' where none exists. Like the wife who thinks her husband is cheating, when he's not. She see's all kinds of what she thinks is evidence when it's just her over active imagination.
'Falling in love' is a bogus concept, and a rather new one. Marriage stemming from romantic love is very new in our history. It was looked at as a sickness by almost every culture on earth until the 20th century. It's not real, leads to unfulfilled expectations, and is based on chemical reactions and not anything stable. True love happens over a long period of time and a lot of work. Hence the 50% divorce rate. My loins want your loins and you sure are cute at 22, that's the reason for most marriages these days. And you can't gloss over the point I made in the last post. Xtians are always looking for evidence their god is real, they'll take any scrap of bogus affirmation they can find. 3 green lights in a row, thank you lord.. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 29th, 2021 at 12:32:51 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
As you have made clear many times sometimes people do not want to believe and no matter the amount of evidence they choose not to. That is their prerogative and they are free to do so.
Please remember your criticism here cuts both ways. There are some people like yourself who don't want to believe and therefore deny any evidence for God exist whatsoever. You are like the wife who thinks her husband is not cheating and will ignore ever evidence to the contrary. She sees evidence but uses an over active imagination to explain it away or pretend it really isn't there.
"Falling in love" is as old as mankind itself. Whether it is in romantic relationships, marriages, friendships, or families. We cannot exist or at least exist in a happy or meaningful way without love.
Yes and atheists and people who play fantasy football and all of us do the same thing. If you believe and commit your life to Christ because you happen to get 3 green lights in a row that is a big problem and leads to serious issues, thank God no one I know seriously does that. Choosing your starting line-up because the person who took your order has the same first name as a running back is also not a good idea for future success. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 29th, 2021 at 4:42:02 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
I have never made it 'clear' that atheists don't want to believe. In fact, many atheists are former Catholics and Baptists. They saw nothing to continue believing in.
I have yet to see any evidence to deny. I was talking to the ex priest about that today. He graduated top of his class in seminary and was a gung-ho believer for years. He gradually became an atheist because all the so called evidence for god eventually fell apart.
And it's the worst reason to get married because it's based on irrationality. Like the old saying goes, you can always fall in love but a good marriage is hard work
My point was so many Xtians belief in god is so thin they constantly look to reinforce that belief. I don't get up every day looking to make sure gravity still works. I have absolute faith it does. Many Xtians don't have that faith in their god at all, and I totally understand why. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 30th, 2021 at 5:48:43 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
You have said that people want to believe in God and see evidence that you don't see. You don't want to believe and that colors how you think and look at the things around you. I do think that desire has a big part in what people believe or don't believe. People will even deny science if they don't want to believe in the conclusions that have been reached. There is no way you can deny any and all evidence for God, as you do, without being blinded by a passionate and unreasonably strong desire and want to not believe in God. You might very well say I am blinded by my want to believe in God that I don't see the evidence against the existence of God, however the difference is I do acknowledge the evidence and arguments against God. However I feel that they are overcome by the evidence for God and the proper theological understanding of who God is in Christianity.
Are you saying love is irrational? Marriage is ALWAYS hard work even when there is great love present.
I think you are presuming here about the strength of people's faith. Again nobody believes in God just because they found a parking spot. Just as hopefully nobody would be an atheist because they lost their job or were treated poorly by a priest. Don't make the mistake that because someone thanks God for hitting the green light that their faith is weak or would fall apart if they got stuck in traffic. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| January 30th, 2021 at 11:18:16 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Why would I want to believe in something I see no evidence for, what would be the point. Do god believing religions even have a point? If they do I can't see it. You don't want atheists to believe in god, you want them to believe in your beliefs about god. So an atheist wakes up and all of a sudden believes in god, what now. It only means something if he latches onto somebody elses interpretation of what god means. Or invents one himself. Just a bunch of busywork nonsense.
'Falling' in love, romantic love, is very irrational. The kind where you meet someone at a party and there is a chemical connection and you're madly in love. It's false, it doesn't last, yet people get married sometimes under that falsehood. Romantic comedies spread this falsehood, that you can meet someone, fall in love immediately, and live happily ever after. The movie always ends with a marriage, they don't dare show what happens in the years that follow.
But that's exactly what it means. I saw it over and over when I was a Xtion. They were constantly looking for signs that god was real. When you really believe in something, are totally convinced, you never do that. I don't get up every day looking for proof the sun came up or gravity still works. I have absolute faith they do. Xtians have to constantly talk in amazement about what god did for them today, like they're astonished. They don't have an absolute belief in god at all. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| January 30th, 2021 at 12:19:29 PM permalink | |
| petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | I disagree. The problem is most folks including you, overuse "to death" the word love. It is the most overused and under experienced word in the English language. When marriage is good or possibly "the best", it isn't work at all. But staying in a marriage that shouldn't have happened, or has become bitter , is a waste of life. No love is much better than bad love. The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |