The Coronavirus thread

Quote: Evenbob

This comes up again and again and again. Single-payer only works, and not very well, in countries that have a limited population.

"One of the primary reasons why free health care wouldn't work in the US is its sheer population size. The reason why free health care won't work in the U.S. relates directly to cost of providing state-of-the-art health care services. Free health care services won't work without a comprehensive plan to pay for medical services and medical providers. With free health care, costs would be paid through higher taxes on the employed who would pay for their own personal health care needs and that of the indigent." (bold added)

It would be off the deep end expensive if you had a job because then you'd be paying for your own health care with your taxes and every lazy slob and illegal immigrant who didn't want to work. Go to any country that has single payer and you'll find right below the surface it's a nightmare. Outrageous wait times for treatments, mediocre doctors cuz the good doctor's go where the money is. People dying on waiting lists for a life and death operation. Screw that.

Israel is actually a pretty good example of it working well. Their mandatory insurance plans (multiple that you can choose from, but must choose one) covers basic health care to make sure you don't die or go bankrupt if you end up in the ER with no insurance. And, then you can buy private insurance for more elective procedures. Basically how Medicare for all would work.... Israel does not have outrageous wait time or mediocre doctors.

As for best Doctors in the world , that is debatable (and depends on what metric you use), many people say Germany is the best overall, but again "best Doctors" depends on your metric (number of degrees? GPA? number of patients seen per day? success rate for procedures? .....) Even if we have the best Doctors in the world, if we don't have the best (or close to it) life expectancy, have a higher rates of preventable disease, have long wait times, have massive medical debt, accessibility issues, does it really matter if we have the best doctors in the world if it does not effect our population health stats?

The reality is we have the best system for the rich (particularly the ultra rich), a mediocre system for the middle class- upper middle class, and an abysmal system for the poor. And, a decent system for the ultra-poor (ironically Medicaid makes them better off - in this field- than many middle class people, sometimes even upper middle class people, because its solid coverage with minimal if any out of pocket expenses and a deductible designed based on your income not coverage) -
IE its not the best system for anyone who can't afford to fly anywhere in the country to get to the hospital of their choosing when they need it...

I don't buy the population narrative. Anything can be scaled.

As for "lazy slobs" who want free healthcare without working. We already have Medicaid which we already pay for (I am not calling people on Medicaid lazy slobs, just using your phraseology for people who don't work and get free healthcare). The people who are hurt most by our system are working class people paying for lousy healthcare through their employer (or a private plan) and not wanting to go to the Doctor because of the copayments and deductibles. Which goes back to my point of the ultra-poor often getting better healthcare than the middle class (some cases the upper middle class if they have a bad plan)....

Quote: Gandler

[

I don't buy the population narrative. Anything can be scaled.
..

This can't. The logistics of it would be off the chart. You think they have long waiting times in Canada and in Great Britain, waiting times here would be horrendous. You would have a two-tier Healthcare System, one for the rich and one for everybody else. All the best doctors would be servicing the 10% of the population that can afford it and the rest of us would be stuck with tons of doctors who can barely speak English. The illegal immigrant equation alone would kill it dead. Not to mention the bajillion ways there are to skim and scam and rob a system like that. If you're middle class or lower and got sick you're screwed. You would go on the waiting to die list for critical treatments. It will never happen here, it would be an immediate joke just like Obamacare is a joke.

Quote: Gandler

Congress does not need to pass a law, landlords can already require vaccinations if they want.... Vaccination status is not a protected disability or illness that they cannot ask about... Nothing to do with Covid they can ask if you are vaccinated against Smallpox if they want.

Ironically the only States that they cannot are some certain conservative States where this appears to be the one issue where they care about tenant rights (and prohibit vaccination checks by property owners on tenants)....

Look around on Google, lots of large apartment complexes (and property management companies) are requiring it for new leases, and adding it into the lease when you need to renew if you want to stay. Existing leases cannot be modified so they have to wait until your lease needs to be renewed.

Also, Mark Dice is about the worst form of information that there is, he used to be hated by the right under Bush, when he was a 9/11 truther, but now he is praised in the Trump-era, which should say a lot... Basically a career conspiracy theorist. Now he stays relevant by peddling election fraud nonsense and COVID conspiracies....

In BC where we have a left wing NDP government it is illegal to ask someone about there Vaccination status other than some specific cases. Even in those cases you can not record their status without the persons written permission.

Quote: Gandler

Israel is actually a pretty good example of it working well. Their mandatory insurance plans (multiple that you can choose from, but must choose one) covers basic health care to make sure you don't die or go bankrupt if you end up in the ER with no insurance. And, then you can buy private insurance for more elective procedures. Basically how Medicare for all would work.... Israel does not have outrageous wait time or mediocre doctors.

I think the Swiss plan has some merit as I understand it. I believe private insurance companies must offer a basic coverage plan at a fixed price if they want to be licensed to sell other plans to those that want more than basic coverage.

I still believe the private sector is the way to handle medical insurance, but with some regulation and we need to get them incentivized to make more profits when their insureds are healthier. It seems like the actuaries of the world can figure out what an average individuals health care costs should be over their lifetimes. You make that amount plus a profit margin (like what is done with utilities) the regulated prices for insurance coverage at several levels and people have to pay that price. You chose your insurance company at age 18, when most individuals are still healthy, and that is your company for life. You legalize interstate commerce rules for medical insurance companies so moving between states doesn't mean changing companies. Now the insurance company is motivated to have their insureds have better medical outcomes than the actuaries predicted because if they do, they make more money.

Kaiser seems to have taken this approach with their "Thrive" campaign. They know if they encourage healthy activity and pro active treatment and behavior, their cost of providing care over the long term goes down. Of course there needs to be the ability for insureds to make noise if they feel their carrier is "restricted care" to save money, but we have those issues already in today's system and in Canada and other national health care systems that seems to be a pervasive problem

It's a concept for whatever its worth. But based on what I have been told first person by Canadians, we don't want there system here in the US unless you want to be put on a waiting list for non-emergency care like Tonsillectomies, joint replacements or other pain reducing surgeries that if delayed, won't kill you.

Quote: JCW09

I think the Swiss plan has some merit as I understand it. I believe private insurance companies must offer a basic coverage plan at a fixed price if they want to be licensed to sell other plans to those that want more than basic coverage.

I still believe the private sector is the way to handle medical insurance, but with some regulation and we need to get them incentivized to make more profits when their insureds are healthier. It seems like the actuaries of the world can figure out what an average individuals health care costs should be over their lifetimes. You make that amount plus a profit margin (like what is done with utilities) the regulated prices for insurance coverage at several levels and people have to pay that price. You chose your insurance company at age 18, when most individuals are still healthy, and that is your company for life. You legalize interstate commerce rules for medical insurance companies so moving between states doesn't mean changing companies. Now the insurance company is motivated to have their insureds have better medical outcomes than the actuaries predicted because if they do, they make more money.

Kaiser seems to have taken this approach with their "Thrive" campaign. They know if they encourage healthy activity and pro active treatment and behavior, their cost of providing care over the long term goes down. Of course there needs to be the ability for insureds to make noise if they feel their carrier is "restricted care" to save money, but we have those issues already in today's system and in Canada and other national health care systems that seems to be a pervasive problem

It's a concept for whatever its worth. But based on what I have been told first person by Canadians, we don't want there system here in the US unless you want to be put on a waiting list for non-emergency care like Tonsillectomies, joint replacements or other pain reducing surgeries that if delayed, won't kill you.

I don't know as much about Swiss healthcare to be honest.
A quick Google search makes it sound like they have something similar to Obamacare (you are required to buy private health insurance, but get a tax credit to subsidize some of the cost). Though it looks like the deductibles and copays are capped much more reasonably.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland

While opening up between States would be an improvement, it would not be the magic bullet that many people seem to think. I honestly have said in other posts, I think America needs to choose between two extremes:

1. Cash based healthcare, with insurance only for catastrophic illness (like car insurance, you don't expect your insurance to pay for an oil change and tire rotation, but its there if you get in a wreck).

2. Or single payer where there is a centralized plan. This would allow a single negatior to hold a lot of power (Medicare already has a ton of power in this regard, one of the few Insurance plans that do, because of their scope, a small local insurance policy simply does not have the time or resources to get a bunch of deals with thousands of different providers and locations). If everyone had the same primary insurance it would solve this.

But, private insurance is so convoluted, that it is beyond complicated, you have to find in-network hospital (and pray they do not have contractors that are out of network). Sure, its fine for a routine DR. visit where you can call, get pre-approved, etc.... but when you are bleeding out and waiting for an ambulance, you don't have many options....

I actually like the idea of cash based healthcare (eye surgery in America is a good example of this in play), where providers have to be transparent with their prices and can tell you exactly how much a visit will be. Dental care is also a good example of this (since many pay in cash even though Dental insurance exists), its very easy to ask your Dentist, "how much for a cleaning", "how much for a filling", and they can give you an exact figure without a bunch of dodging or acting like they have no clue. Try asking your primary care Doctor this even for something routine, and he will look at you like you have three heads and say you need to speak to the billing people, and they will say they need to talk to your insurance (and if you insist on straight cash, they will look a bunch of stuff up, give you the bloated insurance price, and maybe negotiate it down if you are persistent, but there is no guarantee).

Insurance is essentially a middle man, that tries to gobble up as much as they can while paying out as little as they can, its great if you have it heavily subsidized through your employer (or a government program), but if you are paying straight cash to fund a private policy, it can be a total scam. That is why I don't understand everyone's desire to keep the private insurance model, its just confusing and not user friendly. If you truly want to understand every detail of your plan you will need to sit down with a Doctor and Lawyer and even then good luck, and this is not a realistic option for 99% of Americans. Heck, even my basic auto insurance policy is a short book (and it seems like every few weeks they send out a state required amendment to some section or another to make things even more complicated), and I would be lying if I said that I read it all (and I probably read more of it than most Americans). Insurance is designed to benefit one party (and its not the customer or the provider or the mechanic, or the victim -in the case of auto-).

NFL Cardinals team just had 4 players test positive for Covid. Every member of the team has been vaccinated.

Quote:

Flat Earth theorist, anti-vaxxer Rob Skiba dies from COVID

CrooksAndLiars.com unearthed video of Skiba preaching opposition to flu vaccine mandates in 2012, referring to inoculations as “the mark of the beast.” He was referencing the Biblical book of Revelations. His sermon from nearly a decade ago portended right-wing ideology today.

“Gotta take the shot or else you can’t be a teacher in a school or you can’t work at CVS,” he complained.

Skiba’s YouTube channel had 210,000 subscribers.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/flat-earth-theorist-anti-vaxxer-rob-skiba-dies-from-covid-report/ar-AAPzLKV?ocid=msedgntp

Quote: petroglyph

NFL Cardinals team just had 4 players test positive for Covid. Every member of the team has been vaccinated.

You mean is now vaccinated, right? Because if they were how can 4 players test positive?

Quote: petroglyph

NFL Cardinals team just had 4 players test positive for Covid. Every member of the team has been vaccinated.

The vaccines may not prevent prevent infection from Delta very well, but they attenuate the effects of the disease.

Unvaccinated 24 times more likely to be hospitalized.

Between Jan. 8 and Feb. 17, new US daily cases fell 75% from 304,000 to 77,000, one month before the vaccines became available. They fell to 13,000 in June, when 10% of the adult population was vaccinated, then increased 1,500% to 197,000 by Sept., when 72% of the adult population was at least partially vaccinated.

Hospitalizations in Sept., were 1 per 100,000 for the vaccinated, and increased to 24 per 100,000 for the unvaccinated.

"Increases in COVID‐19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States" -Study

"At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable rela- tionship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million peo- ple. Notably, Israel with over 60% of their population fully vaccinated had the highest COVID-19 cases per 1 million people in the last 7 days." - S. V. Subramanian svsubram@hsph.harvard.edu

Quote: AZDuffman

You mean is now vaccinated, right? Because if they were how can 4 players test positive?

Have a good laugh at the unvaccinated winning more Darwin awards.