Professional Wrestling Thread

Watching another episode of The Dark side of the ring
"The last days of Owen Hart"
This stuff is more gripping then any match

Quote: Mission146

Therefore, this thread is for all things professional wrestling, past or present.

I am going to disagree with most of what you wrote. Professional wrestlers have really only two things they are supposed to do:

-keep their opponent safe
-tell a good story

When it comes to telling a story, WWE has spent the better part of the past 40 years trying to make it like a Stallone movie, but usually ends up with some sort of cartoonish Jerry Springer show. When wrestling is done right, it is much more like a Cirq du Soleil show. The top rope, high flying moves are a big part of that. The moves themselves take about one second, if the whole spot took three seconds and then went right back into a headlock, there wouldn't be any way to appreciate it. The wrestlers need to give the audience a full 30 to 60 seconds to digest the biggest spots.

Everything about Hulk Hogan was bad.

Scotty 2 Hotty was a mid-card, short-run comedy act. Of course it was dumb, but didn't really take away from the show. Wasn't he teamed with Rikishi who would just rub his butt in someones face? The whole point was that it was so ridiculous anyone who lost to it would look weak. If you're going to complain about the guys who had barely any history, may as well put Gobbeldygoogker or Zeus/Z-Gangsta, among the worst ever.

Superkick looks like a strong move and kicks to the head are legitimate knockout moves. Shawn Michaels would mix up how it was used, sometimes coming out of nowhere, sometimes heating up the audience with stomps. The stomps would draw attention to his leg for the audience, and when done right, he would hit his opponent as soon as they got back to their feet.

RVD was one of the most athletic wrestlers in history. His work in ECW at the same time as Sabu, Taz, and Tommy Dreamer was probably the best wrestling of the 90s.

Before Sting ever took over the Crow gimmick, he spent a decade as a good worker, doing great runs with the some of the best workers in history: Flair, Vader, Great Muta. The initial run with the Crow character was great and could have been one of the biggest things ever if Hogan wasn't such a horrible person. It was more than a year from when Sting first showed the black-and-white face paint until Starrcade. What other angle in wrestling was that hot for that long, with that big of a payoff (even if Hogan ruined it)?

CM Punk is like the Gayle Sayers or Sandy Koufax of pro wrestling. Truly great, just such a short run. Like RVD, his Punk's work in ROH was probably the best wrestling from the 2000s. During his run in WWE, he worked with all their top talent and everyone who worked with him thought he was the best and most trusted worker in the company. They could put anyone in there with him (Kevin Nash, Ryback, Alberto Del Rio), and it would get over. Having big muscles is like the least important part of being able to tell a good story. It's like saying the part that made Walker Texas Ranger so hard to believe is Chuck Norris' size. Good for him for getting out. Pro wrestling is an industry that literally kills its talent.

Women's wrestling has made such a huge jump in the past 10 years. Compared to today, previous generations of women wrestlers are like what the first UFC was compared to today.

I will say the worst wrestlers in history were Hulk Hogan and Triple H. I could argue they used their power to prop themselves up, but really they used their power to keep everyone else down and hurt the entire industry as a way to make themselves seem higher. For a while, I though Shawn Michaels was the best ever. He was involved in the best matches every year starting in the early 90s, and going until the late 2000s. Almost 20 years as among the best in the world. That's Tom Brady / LeBron James level. But just too much of a prick and got too close to the Hogan/Triple H territory. The two who used their positions to bring others up, and are my choices for among the best ever, are Undertaker and Ric Flair.

Choice for very best ever has now become Chris Jericho. Came up in the 90s and immediately did great stuff with the best workers of the time: Guerrero, Malenko, Banoit, Mysterio. Takes a break to Japan to work with Jushin Thunder Liger. Then goes to WWE and immediately interrupts The Rock. Then spends 20 years at the top of the card, working with biggest names, constantly reinventing himself. I now love him even more in AEW, just one of the reasons I have become a total mark for the whole company.

AEW is exposing everything WWE has done wrong for decades. WWE is based entirely on whatever Vince wants, with no checks or balances. Every single word is scripted, with very few people given control over the writing. If Vince wants a dumb sex joke, we get a dumb sex joke. If he thinks racist propaganda is a good idea, we see racist propaganda. If he wants an evil dentist, he wastes a year of one of his best talents. If he wants some big guy, then he pushes a big guy on us even if they can't work. WWE needs someone to be an established star to be a major player; but it usually takes a wrestler at least 10 years to reach that level, so by the time they are put at the top, they are usually past their prime.

AEW assembles the best talent they can and give everyone as much creative freedom as they want. Everyone finds their own voice and whatever is best stays and whatever doesn't work gets reinvented. Darby Allin and Sammy Guavara have already had great battles and look like they might for the next 10 years. Orange Cassidy is probably the only original character in wrestling this century. Matches have clear winners that are a push forward for one guy and a step back for the other. Best match from last night was a 22-year-old against a 24-year-old. On an event that had no fans and was still better than 90% of WWE pay-per-views.

Quote: TominNV

I

Everything about Hulk Hogan was bad.

I will say the worst wrestlers in history were Hulk Hogan and Triple H. I could argue they used their power to prop themselves up, but really they used their power to keep everyone else down and hurt the entire industry as a way to make themselves seem higher. For a while, I though Shawn Michaels was the best ever. He was involved in the best matches every year starting in the early 90s, and going until the late 2000s. Almost 20 years as among the best in the world. That's Tom Brady / LeBron James level. But just too much of a prick and got too close to the Hogan/Triple H territory. The two who used their positions to bring others up, and are my choices for among the best ever, are Undertaker and Ric Flair.

Hogan's return in 1984 was one of those moments. Like it or hate it, when Bob Backlund brought him in the whole sport changed. Ring ability no longer mattered at all.

It was exciting when he Backed Backlund on TV. Weeks later he won the title. Sgt. Slaughter was less than happy. But the promotion would now be built around Hogan and that was that. Thing was, I for one got bored of him after a few months. Noticed it was always the same match no matter who he fought. Over time we learned Hogan had little scientific wrestling ability. He could not carry a match. He had a wild mic style, but he could not cut a promo like the best of them could.

He was family friendly, and that is what counted. It is rumored he was so bad in the ring that Backlund refused to turn heel and drop the title to him. Backlund made his bones as a college wrestler. He knew actual wrestling holds. So the Iron Sheik was chosen, the Sheik having Olympic wrestling cred. That reign lasted less than a month.

Thus the Mania Era was born. It would be a Golden Age.

Now this is what it means to be "good on the mic."

Quote: TominNV

I am going to disagree with most of what you wrote. Professional wrestlers have really only two things they are supposed to do:

-keep their opponent safe
-tell a good story

When it comes to telling a story, WWE has spent the better part of the past 40 years trying to make it like a Stallone movie, but usually ends up with some sort of cartoonish Jerry Springer show. When wrestling is done right, it is much more like a Cirq du Soleil show. The top rope, high flying moves are a big part of that. The moves themselves take about one second, if the whole spot took three seconds and then went right back into a headlock, there wouldn't be any way to appreciate it. The wrestlers need to give the audience a full 30 to 60 seconds to digest the biggest spots.

I definitely agree in terms of the theory behind it, it's just not something that I like because it loses believability for me. I understand that a certain aspect of professional wrestling requires the audience to suspend disbelief, but some moves getting hit successfully take it too far for me. My logic says if the guy is down that long, then you could just pin him.

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Everything about Hulk Hogan was bad.

Pretty much. Nice looking legdrop for a massive guy, but not as a finisher. Necessary evil. Kids liked him once.

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Scotty 2 Hotty was a mid-card, short-run comedy act. Of course it was dumb, but didn't really take away from the show. Wasn't he teamed with Rikishi who would just rub his butt in someones face? The whole point was that it was so ridiculous anyone who lost to it would look weak. If you're going to complain about the guys who had barely any history, may as well put Gobbeldygoogker or Zeus/Z-Gangsta, among the worst ever.

.

I'm not complaining about the character, just the move. Rikishi did indeed stick his butt in the faces of his opponents, but it wasn't exactly what you would call a finisher. It was really stupid and I think it was goofiness such as the move that would turn off what might otherwise become casual fans...in some cases.

Anyway, I'm not complaining about Scotty 2 Hotty himself or the 2 Cool stable, that's one of my favorite Attitude Era stables. I'm just complaining about that particular move because thew opponent would have to be dead for him to successfully hit that. The opponent could get KO'ed, revived with smelling salts, take a shower and go play a Round of 18...drive BACK to the arena, get back into ring attire, have a light snack and make it back to the ring in time for the move to be delivered.

The trio dancing after matches and/or clearing the ring ruled.

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Superkick looks like a strong move and kicks to the head are legitimate knockout moves. Shawn Michaels would mix up how it was used, sometimes coming out of nowhere, sometimes heating up the audience with stomps. The stomps would draw attention to his leg for the audience, and when done right, he would hit his opponent as soon as they got back to their feet.

The Superkick out of nowhere is excellent, especially in matches where it looks like HBK is all but finished and throws it out of desperation. The theatrics version is unrealistic, if the opponent is so disoriented as to get up for that, then HBK could just win it with an inside cradle. If the opponent has not lost his hearing, then he clearly knows what's coming and should just roll out of the ring, or be ready to counter it.

Anyway, the theatrics version may have worked for me once, maybe twice, ever. Like, HBK has a tremendous amount of heat with some guy and, even though he already has the match won, he wants to take his head off. I could buy that, because then there isn't NECESSARILY a reason for the opponent to know what all the stomping is about. Or, maybe HBK hits a superkick and follows it up with another theatrics version...then I could believe the opponent is dazed enough to allow this.

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RVD was one of the most athletic wrestlers in history. His work in ECW at the same time as Sabu, Taz, and Tommy Dreamer was probably the best wrestling of the 90s.

Honestly, ECW wasn't really on my radar as much as it should have been. You had WWE/WWF, WCW, trying to catch as much Regional stuff as possible and actually doing it myself to a fairly small extent. I guess the Mission146 wrestling market was already oversaturated without ECW.

I'm not calling RVD bad, just saying overrated. Please keep in mind it's a, "Least favorite," list, not a list meant to be the worst. It's basically a list of who I consider the most overrated, or just flat out don't like (Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior) as much as anything else. Rob Van Dam makes it on my list mostly because his persona is both (imho) one-dimensional and insufferable. Great athlete, good matches, very good move set...still don't like him.

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Before Sting ever took over the Crow gimmick, he spent a decade as a good worker, doing great runs with the some of the best workers in history: Flair, Vader, Great Muta. The initial run with the Crow character was great and could have been one of the biggest things ever if Hogan wasn't such a horrible person. It was more than a year from when Sting first showed the black-and-white face paint until Starrcade. What other angle in wrestling was that hot for that long, with that big of a payoff (even if Hogan ruined it)?

I wasn't really a big fan of the Surfer Sting gimmick and I really would have liked Crow Sting to be essentially a heel...I guess the problem is that would just make him some weird combination of Vampiro and Raven, or something. He's just on my list for being overrated, I don't hate him. I guess I can't name another angle like that, but I also didn't care about that angle at all. Hulk Hogan was already basically washed up, as far as I was concerned, and was never really any good in the first place...as you've already admitted...so what do I care what he is doing with Sting? Although, I will say that it's one of Sting's few feuds (until TNA, anyway) where he was actually the one bringing the other guy up. Yes, Sting had good feuds with some of the best workers in history, that's what you're supposed to do. Ric Flair could make an artificial Christmas tree look great in a match.

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CM Punk is like the Gayle Sayers or Sandy Koufax of pro wrestling. Truly great, just such a short run. Like RVD, his Punk's work in ROH was probably the best wrestling from the 2000s. During his run in WWE, he worked with all their top talent and everyone who worked with him thought he was the best and most trusted worker in the company. They could put anyone in there with him (Kevin Nash, Ryback, Alberto Del Rio), and it would get over. Having big muscles is like the least important part of being able to tell a good story. It's like saying the part that made Walker Texas Ranger so hard to believe is Chuck Norris' size. Good for him for getting out. Pro wrestling is an industry that literally kills its talent.

He's an embarrassment. I don't have a problem with a small guy rising to the top in and of itself, I have a problem with a small guy who I have no reason to believe could ever legitimately win a fight rising to the top. As I said before, CM Punk would later go on to do me the favor of proving my theory...he's a little squirt who can't fight.

As far as small guys go, there are plenty of guys who aren't huge who would be believable: Blackman, Snow, Tajiri, Michinoku, Waltman and many others. Basically the supremely skilled martial arts experts, which is what you're going to need to legitimately beat someone much bigger than you. Of course, they did that heel turn with Snow (that he regrets) and let him sniff the top of the card very briefly (Foley, The Rock) but must have decided it wasn't really working.

Of course he's trusted, he could punch you straight in the face with everything he has and you'd barely notice.

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Women's wrestling has made such a huge jump in the past 10 years. Compared to today, previous generations of women wrestlers are like what the first UFC was compared to today.

Great to see it, too!

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I will say the worst wrestlers in history were Hulk Hogan and Triple H. I could argue they used their power to prop themselves up, but really they used their power to keep everyone else down and hurt the entire industry as a way to make themselves seem higher. For a while, I though Shawn Michaels was the best ever. He was involved in the best matches every year starting in the early 90s, and going until the late 2000s. Almost 20 years as among the best in the world. That's Tom Brady / LeBron James level. But just too much of a prick and got too close to the Hogan/Triple H territory. The two who used their positions to bring others up, and are my choices for among the best ever, are Undertaker and Ric Flair.

Wait a minute, wait a minute, let's slow it down...HHH? Listen, I will absolutely grant that HHH would never have ascended to where he got if he wasn't sticking his (omitted) in the right person, but the guy's no slouch. If you want to say overrated or got to the top because of politics, I will grant all of that...but worst?

The Hunter Hearst Helmsley gimmick was great and resulted in a decent push for him, until the curtain call at MSG. Stephanie McMahon was barely even legal by the time HHH was feuding with The Undertaker, much less having relations with him (that we know of). Degeneration X is one of the Top 10 stables of all-time, in both incarnations.

HHH is a good enough talker and has the range to be effective as a face or a heel, though he's definitely considerably better as a heel unless DX is involved. Great physique, so-so move set.

Anyway, I think he's good enough that he might have floated in and out of the top of the card, and would have consistently been mid-upper card, until the mid-2000's, or so. Maybe carry the strap 1-3 times with one long heel run in there. I guess the only real problem with the Attitude Era (aside from Jerry Springer over-the-top antics) is that they played hot potato with all of the belts. That's what your lower-tier belts are for.

I agree on Shawn Michaels, but I'll begrudgingly admit he still has to be in the Top 50 all-time. Maybe Top 25 just because I lack the context that actually witnessing the kayfabe era guys would lend.

Undertaker and Flair are easily in the Top 10 all-time, in my opinion, with Flair arguably being #1. I do wish the former wouldn't have spent the last five years getting carried in disappointing matches on an annual basis.

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Choice for very best ever has now become Chris Jericho. Came up in the 90s and immediately did great stuff with the best workers of the time: Guerrero, Malenko, Banoit, Mysterio. Takes a break to Japan to work with Jushin Thunder Liger. Then goes to WWE and immediately interrupts The Rock. Then spends 20 years at the top of the card, working with biggest names, constantly reinventing himself. I now love him even more in AEW, just one of the reasons I have become a total mark for the whole company.

Jericho is great at everything he does, have you watched, "Nothing to Report?" You can find it on Youtube and I think the only reason it didn't happen is that it would be tough to make an entire season (let alone multiple seasons) from the premise. I would definitely put Jericho somewhere in my Top Three, but I hesitate on #1...mainly just because there are too many guys I don't know as much as I should about before I vault him over them. I can't think of anyone I'd put over him, but I'd have a really difficult time putting him over Flair.

I've watched a few of the AEW clips on Youtube, just of Jericho. I mean to watch entire episodes, but I never really get around to it just because I've generally lost so much interest in pro wrestling.

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AEW is exposing everything WWE has done wrong for decades. WWE is based entirely on whatever Vince wants, with no checks or balances. Every single word is scripted, with very few people given control over the writing. If Vince wants a dumb sex joke, we get a dumb sex joke. If he thinks racist propaganda is a good idea, we see racist propaganda. If he wants an evil dentist, he wastes a year of one of his best talents. If he wants some big guy, then he pushes a big guy on us even if they can't work. WWE needs someone to be an established star to be a major player; but it usually takes a wrestler at least 10 years to reach that level, so by the time they are put at the top, they are usually past their prime.

AEW assembles the best talent they can and give everyone as much creative freedom as they want. Everyone finds their own voice and whatever is best stays and whatever doesn't work gets reinvented. Darby Allin and Sammy Guavara have already had great battles and look like they might for the next 10 years. Orange Cassidy is probably the only original character in wrestling this century. Matches have clear winners that are a push forward for one guy and a step back for the other. Best match from last night was a 22-year-old against a 24-year-old. On an event that had no fans and was still better than 90% of WWE pay-per-views.

I agree with everything you said about Vince, but at the same time, he's done a lot incredibly right. It seems like everything is either a home run or a strikeout. No base hits. Isn't A.J. Styles supposed to be a big deal? I saw him in TNA a bit close to a decade or so ago...he's okay.

Everything you're saying sounds good, but I have no idea who any of the people you said are. I tuned almost completely out of all of it roughly a decade ago. His first name is Orange? I might start my reinventing there.

Quote: AZDuffman

Now this is what it means to be "good on the mic."

Poor Virgil. Everyone seems to think these guys are set for life, The Wrestler was a great film exposing the truth of that.

I can almost guarantee that Virgil would watch this entire clip for you, dribbling a basketball the entire duration, for fifty bucks.

Quote: Mission146

Poor Virgil. Everyone seems to think these guys are set for life, The Wrestler was a great film exposing the truth of that.

I can almost guarantee that Virgil would watch this entire clip for you, dribbling a basketball the entire duration, for fifty bucks.

Last we heard Virgil was a math teacher here in Pittsburgh. Why here who knows. What Virgil had going for him was he could make the greatest facial expressions. I do not even remember hearing him talk back in the day.

They do usually end up very regular people after their career ends.

Have you ever seen the pic of Virgil at some autograph session sitting alone under a "Meet Virgil" sign? He is probably an OK guy, but I would not do more than chat if I met him at the bar. Then again I have been in rooms full of sports stars and did not recognize any of them.

Those who denigrate Vince McMahon miss the point. He is a businessman. He built the sham which is pro wrestling into a multi-billion dollar business, with Vince having a stranglehold on it. You can argue that he pushed this guy too much, or this gal too little. Big freaking deal.... The WWE under his stewardship grew from a cable TV show just starting out, to the MOST SUCCESSFUL cable TV show ever. And it became big enough that it is now on Network TV as well. He develops stars who move on to bigger and better things (Cena, Rock, Batista, TRUMP!)

(Disclosure--- I'm a happy stockholder!)

By the way, what do you guys think about AEW, when introducing their matches, giving the performers' Win/Loss records? I think it detracts from thinking about the competitor as a "superstar" when he is 6 -7 this year.....

Quote: AZDuffman

Last we heard Virgil was a math teacher here in Pittsburgh. Why here who knows. What Virgil had going for him was he could make the greatest facial expressions. I do not even remember hearing him talk back in the day.

They do usually end up very regular people after their career ends.

Have you ever seen the pic of Virgil at some autograph session sitting alone under a "Meet Virgil" sign? He is probably an OK guy, but I would not do more than chat if I met him at the bar. Then again I have been in rooms full of sports stars and did not recognize any of them.

Is he a math teacher? That's new. For some decades he's been mostly known for just showing up at random events pimping his one time partnership with DeBiase. They even made a little website about it.

I think it was 2017 he was at some media event in Moundsville, WV. Not a wrestling event, mind you, just some event...I'm not going to lie, I don't really know what the purpose of the event was supposed to be. There were a few restaurants passing out samples, home improvement type companies, people selling spices and jams, people selling candles...and, yup, Virgil. I lived there at the time and mostly just took the kids over because I wanted to see what all the commotion was about, the answer was almost nothing...but anything that is more than nothing is a pretty big deal in Moundsville. They probably haven't even really noticed we're doing isolation yet, because nobody ever goes anywhere except the grocery stores and hardware stores anyway.

I take that back. They probably almost all noticed when the churches and bars were closed.

Don't worry, if you ever see Virgil, he'll be quick to chat you up...you won't have to break the ice. For some reason, in 2017, he expected a nine-year old and a six-year old to have any idea who he is and want a signed picture for whatever amount he was asking. I think he scared the kids a little, to be honest, he's still a HUGE dude. He's a really nice guy and I felt bad not buying anything, but I think that's basically the gimmick. His arms are still pretty jacked, but if anything surprised me, it's that I'm a little bit taller than him. I never looked up his height before, and he looks huge on TV...but I guess I also thought DeBiase was taller...and he and I are actually the same height....and I used to be taller than him by a fraction.

Quote: Mission146

Is he a math teacher? That's new. For some decades he's been mostly known for just showing up at random events pimping his one time partnership with DeBiase. They even made a little website about it.

I think it was 2017 he was at some media event in Moundsville, WV. Not a wrestling event, mind you, just some event...I'm not going to lie, I don't really know what the purpose of the event was supposed to be. There were a few restaurants passing out samples, home improvement type companies, people selling spices and jams, people selling candles...and, yup, Virgil. I lived there at the time and mostly just took the kids over because I wanted to see what all the commotion was about, the answer was almost nothing...but anything that is more than nothing is a pretty big deal in Moundsville. They probably haven't even really noticed we're doing isolation yet, because nobody ever goes anywhere except the grocery stores and hardware stores anyway.

I take that back. They probably almost all noticed when the churches and bars were closed.

I have done work there. Nice old prison, it made "Mindhunter." But the place is bad luck for me, twice now I have worked it and neither gig lasted a month. Plus going to lunch crossing the street to eat is suicide.

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Don't worry, if you ever see Virgil, he'll be quick to chat you up...you won't have to break the ice. For some reason, in 2017, he expected a nine-year old and a six-year old to have any idea who he is and want a signed picture for whatever amount he was asking. I think he scared the kids a little, to be honest, he's still a HUGE dude. He's a really nice guy and I felt bad not buying anything, but I think that's basically the gimmick. His arms are still pretty jacked, but if anything surprised me, it's that I'm a little bit taller than him. I never looked up his height before, and he looks huge on TV...but I guess I also thought DeBiase was taller...and he and I are actually the same height....and I used to be taller than him by a fraction.

I always thought he looked smaller on TV because DiBiase is about a foot taller. Guy worked for me met him in a bar. Some event did not draw enough so he did not have to work. Guy said he is so much bigger in person than he looks around the other wrestlers. Said he was a friendly enough guy.